Making my Time-tested and Proven Beefheart Discus Food Recipe (Good for Most Carnivorous Fish)
Discus 9 years ago 26,954 views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EySu18EjLkY EDIT: Since Youtube has discontinued "annotations" meaning that I can no longer use clickable links inside my videos, the links you see in this video will no longer work. You can copy and paste the above URL to see the meat processing video if you should want to do so. I apologize for the inconvenience that this is now causing - as opposed to the very convenient annotation format which we were offered by Youtube at the time that this video was produced. This is a step-by-step tutorial on how to make my version of a cheap, yet highly nutritious, meat-based food for your Discus fish, and other meat-eating tropical fish. This recipe has been tweaked by myself over and over for almost two decades, until I arrived at this formula, which seems to work on all levels...... It is fairly simple to make, the fish love it, it doesn't foul or cloud the water, it has all the nutrients/vitamins etc which the fish require, and it will help to condition your fish to breed. I feed this to my Discus, Angelfish, and various Tetras. I have fed it in the past to Red-Bellied Piranhas, African Cichlids, Catfish and carnivorous Plecos, and I'm sure there are other fish which will readily accept this inexpensive and nutritious staple food. You will notice that I don't use exact measurements for anything. This is not a gourmet cake - it is an approximated mixture of meat, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, greens and roughage held together with gelatin and flavored with a touch of garlic (optional). It will vary slightly in composition every time I make it, but that is the way fish feed in the wild - variety is the norm, so a bit more liver in one recipe and a bit less lettuce in another, will keep the fish interested in eating the food over the long run. It is also important to vary your fish feedings, never feeding ONLY beefheart....nobody wants to eat only one type of food every day, and our fish are no exception. Keeping our fish happy will cause them to show their best colors and promote breeding, which is the focus of my youtube channel. Every ingredient and every method in my recipe has been thoroughly researched, and I believe the result is near perfection. There are specific reasons for using certain ingredients, and also for not using others (such as spinach or shrimp). I sometimes cringe at some of the other beefheart videos out there when I see people adding things that have no place in the Discus tank or any other fish tank. If anyone has any questions about anything at all in my recipe, or your own, please feel free to ask. Thanks, have fun making your own fish food, and enjoy the video (sorry about the long and boring parts) ;)
I also have added other interesting ingredients to my mixes in the past, such as clams, squid, mussels, lobster, crayfish, snails, octopus, and many different types of saltwater fish. They were met with varying degrees of success. Sometimes the fish didn't care for it at all (in one case I added too much spirulina powder and the mix turned an ugly shade of green, and in another case, I added too much garlic and the fish shunned it). Sometimes it turned out that the ingredients had an excessively short shelf life in the freezer, or fouled the tank too much, so I kept tweaking the formula and came up with this one which works splendidly, and I do modify it from time to time (or some small percentage of it as a test) , as certain items become available/in season (=cheap)....this time, I did a test with baby peas, and I think it will turn out just fine.
I have tried to cut out the BH altogether in the past, but I found that the food didn't stand up well in the tank, and when BH was included, the fish waste looked firmer, darker, and more healthy to me, so I continue to use it to this day, although in smaller amounts then I did in the past.
I also have tried using worms in the past. I don't like chopping them, and they don't freeze well at all, so now I keep several cultures of white worms going, and I feed every day with freeze-dried blackworms, and as a treat, some frozen bloodworms from time to time. The red wigglers, and nightcrawlers that I have tons of, are now used strictly as bait when I'm fishing ;)
I've never had issues with bloating because my BH is minced up super fine, and I don't feed any one thing exclusively. My fish never know what's next on the menu, and that way they stay interested in eating, and always are alert when I step anywhere near the tank :D
This year I am going to try netting glassworms from the surface of the lake I live near - just waiting for the ducks to give me the signal that these insects are at the surface - when I see them all skimming the surface with their beaks...any day now. I know fish love these things, and I can net out and freeze tons of the stuff.
I also collect ant eggs and freeze them in the right season - they are packed with protein and vitamins, and the fish go crazy for them.
Sorry, I rambled a bit there....I tend to do that when I talk about something I'm passionate about :)
Woody's Discus (FB)
I think all of the foods you are feeding your fish are excellent, and adding beef...um....goatheart recipe to their diet, should add some growth and size to your fish. It is especially beneficial to your young fish, as they will grow the fastest on this food, no question about it!
The fish you are asking about, is spelled "Salmon" and unfortunately, unless you are from a part of the world where this fish is found wild (Northern Europe, Canada, USA) you will not be able to get the wild version of this food very easily or cheaply. The same goes for the shrimp. Unfortunately, these days, almost all of the Salmon and Shrimp found in the stores are farmed. The reason you don't want to use these is because they are treated with numerous chemicals and medications, and are fed with the worst food possible, which is what your fish will be eating and therefore, a very bad choice of ingredients for this recipe!
If you cannot find wild Salmon, go to your local store, and look for any fatty saltwater fish, which cannot be farmed. Really, the species of fish does not matter, but coldwater and saltwater species are what you want, because fresh water fish can have pathogens, parasites, etc, which can transfer to your Discus, and potentially kill them! Do a quick google search on your species of fish, and make sure it doesn't contain too much heavy metals such as Tuna which have very high Mercury levels. Something like a flounder, Halibut, Cod, even Makerel should work very well. I suggest trying a small batch first, to make sure your Discus will accept the fish in the recipe - maybe even throw in a small piece of your selected fish into the tank for 20 minutes or so, and observe to see that your Discus will eventually start to pick at it, and accept it as food. As for the shrimp, if you cannot find wild, you can try using other ocean foods such as clams, mussels, octopus, squid, etc... you should quickly boil these before using in the recipe in place of the shrimp. Most of those foods are not farmed, and if they are, it will be in the semi-wild of the ocean, without chemicals, or pesticides.
I hope I have answered your questions, but if not, or if you have more, please feel free to drop me a line here, and I will answer - I check my youtube daily, but my email, maybe once a week or month :)
If you try the goat heart, please write back, and let me know if it works for you, or if it doesn't. It could help others in the future, if they ever want to try goat - good luck!
Just like a true aquarium fin-atic, you will stop at nothing to make sure your fish are well-cared for, healthy, and happy, and you want to see them breed for you :D :D :D
I wish I could put up an emojee with 2 hands clapping :) :) :)
I also wish I could offer you some advice about growing lettuce....but all I know is that it likes cool soil, so maybe some shade over the garden, and other than that, I wish you all the best of luck, and as always, please let me know how it turns out for you :) :) :)
That's the beauty of this hobby - lots and lots of room for experimentation, and the joy of finding something that works well for you (and others). PS, if you don't mind me asking, what part of the world are you in?
Please let me know if you try something else, and it works - I'm always happy to learn :) Oh yeah, also remember that just because you make the recipe, doesn't mean that the fish will actually eat it LOL I've seen some formulas which were snubbed by fish - even when they were hungry, and would happily eat anything else (including other recipe beefhearts) so if you experiment with this recipe, do it in small batches :D
PS, the butchers/meat counters around me will let me pre-order beef heart if I know I'm making it next week, I will let the butcher know how many I need, and I can be sure that he will have it for me. Just a suggestion if you're dead set on using the heart.
I've also been through the situation you're in (unable to find heart meat) so I laugh, but I'm laughing with you, not at you :D :D :D
I have heard of people trying to use pig hearts, but because of the diet that some farmers will feed their pigs, this meat is inherently worse to use than beef heart, and is also more fatty than the beef heart is.
I have also heard of people using chicken and/or turkey hearts (sometimes you can buy a large bag of them at the butcher. These might even be a better choice than pig heart in my opinion.
Remember, the heart is just a binder - a component used to hold the rest together, so you can get away with using less of it, or less of whatever you choose to be the substitute for it.
I can't wait to hear how this turns out :)
PS how do you get the emojies in your reply - I have not been able to figure this out yet LOL
I have a dehydrator machine, and have been wanting to try dehydrating the formula. This would remove the water (without excess heat) and shrink the meat mix to a tough, dry consistency. When re-hydrated (by putting in the tank water) it should return to almost the same form as it was before dehydration.
I have not yet tried this method, but it might work for you. If you don't have a dehydrator machine, you can put the meat in an oven on the lowest setting, and leave the door open just a little, and maybe put an electric fan inside the oven so that warm air is constantly blowing over the meat. If you cut the meat into thin, and small pieces, this process should dehydrate them in a few hours. You test them by snapping one, if it bends, then there is still too much moisture in it, if it snaps, and is brittle, then it is done.
If you tightly seal the dried meat in plastic bags (preferably air removed), this should last without refrigeration for several months. The only concern would be mold forming on the meat. I have an idea to stop this....I think if you packed the meat in lots of salt, mold couldn't form, and before you feed it to your fish, make sure to shake all the salt off, and give it a quick rinse with water.
If you do decide to give this a try, I would very much appreciate if you would come back to this page, and comment about your success or failure. Thanks!
I stopped doing this however, because I now make my beefheart in massive quantities, as I find it a chore to do this every couple of months, so I buy enough heart/fish/liver etc to make enough for 6 months of feedings. I have noticed that the fish seem reluctant to eat the food after about the 4th or 5th month, and I suspect it's because the thinness of the food in the ziplocks allows the food to succumb to freezer burn, and/or loses some of the taste and nutritional value.
I did an experiment and put the food into air-sealed baggies (as in the video) in large, thick chunks, and left that in the freezer for 5 months. I then fed some of this thick meat and some of the thin, ziplock meat, to several tanks of different fish (Angels, Discus, Tetras, Corys, Plecos) and found that in every single case, the fish would eat the thicker meat with gusto, and avoided the thinner meat, leaving it to rot at the bottom of the tank, or picking at it with reluctance, only after the thicker meat was gone.
The thicker meat smelled good - better than the ziplock - which seemed to lose all odor after month 2 or 3 and the color was nicer on the thick stuff too.
I believe either the fish or the liver in the formula must have a fairly short shelf life in the ziplock bags, and my aquarium fish can definitely tell the difference.
So, that being said, although I absolutely agree with you that the ziplock solution is more convenient, and easier to feed, I personally stick with the thick cuts in the air sealed baggies, and use a knife to shave the food down to size for feedings.
If you are only making small batches (probably better for your fish anyhow) then yes, I would say your method is the way to go.
Thanks for watching, and taking the time to comment with your suggestion! It may help other people when they browse through this comment section in the future :)
Some other things I would like to point out about your recipe that you might not know; I used to add spinach myself, until I found out that it was actually bad for the fish, and has been shown to leach vitamins out of a fish's blood (can't remember the study, I'd have to look it up) but you can substitute the red lettuce instead, which has all the iron, and other benefits, without the downsides of spinach - it is also really great at loosening up your ground meats in the blender without the need to add water.
I also used to add shrimp to my recipe, but you need to be really careful about your source. If they are wild-caught shrimp, and not from an asian country, then yes, they are an excellent addition, but if they are the cheaper, farmed shrimps, avoid them like the plague. These shrimp are fed garbage, and their ponds are pumped full of chemicals and medications to keep them from getting diseases, and to top it all off, the farmers are known to use syringes to inject dirty pond water into the body cavity of the shrimps to increase their weight just before sale. If you boil them, (hopefully) all of the bacteria will be killed off, but if you use them as-is in your beefheart formula, you will make your fish sick for sure!
Same thing with Salmon - use wild-caught only, I can't stress that enough!
Other than that, your recipe sounds good, asthaxin is great, and so is garlic, but also should be added in moderation, so that your food doesn't reek of garlic, as this will turn off some picky eaters as well.
Good luck with your next batch, hopefully it turns out better for you. If you need any advice, I'm happy to help :)
1- Lettuce is virtually devoid of any nutritional value and you'd be slightly better off using spinach, or even better, kale.
2- It seems like it would make more sense to add the vitamins and the gelatin to your mix while it's in the bowl rather than messing around with it after you spread it on the tray.
As for my question, I was wondering why you shock the liver to prevent fouling your water but leave the beef heart completely raw. Would they not both have a negative effect on your water quality?
I've attempted this method before using gelatin and it doesn't hold together very well. I guess I must've messed up my proportions, but I did try to compensate with extra gelatin. I'm curious as to whether agar agar works better. Much more expensive, but definitely something to look into.
Paul.
I'm a little hesitant to test anything on a live creature, but I may have to try it out on some guppies or something because losing a few fish for the greater good of the entire population would ultimately be a worthy sacrifice.
There used to be a Discus breeder named Carry Strong out of Detroit, he was famous for testing out various theories on his fish, like leaving them in a shipping box in his backyard for 3 days in February to see if they could survive the ordeal. He had a whole basement of tanks filled with fish though, so he could afford to lose a few. Me, not so much :)
not as long as you have, and I think I can offer you a few improvements. :)
Kale is def. an experimental ingredient. I really have no clue about the taste-buds of our fish and it would probably not be wise to anthropomorphize something like that.
If the lettuce is just for water, then it seems that it would be smarter just to add water rather than wasting money on something that you can get for much cheaper as spring water or aged tap water. Again, the vitamins you add are most likely enough and, just as with humans, it's never a good idea to mega-dose on vitamins. I think you demonstrate the redundancy of the lettuce perfectly by the way you slice it with a knife and then twist it to break off the base afterwards (LOL ok, I'm just
messing with you a bit there).
Ok, but as for the improvements to the formula that I promised you -- try baby food! Carrots and all that other good shit. Trust me, if a baby will eat it you can bet that your spoiled little fish will.
All that being said, I do not recommend feeding a diet of strictly beefheart, or strictly anything for that matter. I always include a variety of foods, and I wont feed the beefheart for a day or two out of each week. I suppliment with frozen Hijari bloodworms, freezedried blackworms (live BW if Im trying to induce spawning in a stubborn pair) and live whiteworms, as well as live red wigglers (tiny sized, or cut into peices with a razor blade) as well as occassionalky feeding Tetra color bits and even fresh flake food from time to time (althougj flake is usually ignored by my fish). I will also keep a few bristle nosed Plecos in my non-breeding tanks to clean up any tiny particles of food which have fallen to the bottom and are too small for the Discus to care about....this really helps to keep watet quality good.
I am now feeding my beefheart formula to feed my breeder and grow-out Angels, African Cichlids, Zebra and L201 Plecos, Tetras as well as other fish over the years- all with positive breeding results, but always with varried diets. Well, its taken me so long to tap this out on my phone that I see you already replied to part 1 LOL....
I have always used gelotine in my mixtures. The secret to a good solud gel being formed is to first dissolve in bouling wzter and then add the cold...in exact amounts as per the label Wnen I first started making this beefheart mixture in the early 90s, I managed to mess up a few batches by not doing the gelatine correctly. This lead to messes in the tanks and a huge strain on the filtratiom systems, as well as me - more water changes were definately needed :) I know some people dont ise any binding agent, and personally I shudder at the thought. Agar-agar can also be used, and I know several people who swear by it, but having been given a sample of their food to try, I didnt see any difference in clouding of the water, but I did notice that my fish prefered my formula to theirs (perhaps because of being conditioned to eat mine). I have also seen a youtube video of Matk Weisse using only powders and algaes to form his food, but it looked like A LOT of effort and time. My fish grow big and strong and most importantly breed frequently and easily, so the way I see it, they must be getting everything they need out of the food already, so whybother with the additional work?
Anyway, don't feel stupid -- this is a learning process and we are all in the same boat. It would help us all to refine our methods. If we consider nutrition, effort and cost, it's sure that we can cut some corners. Consider baby food. The real key as far as I'm concerned is holding everything together, which gelatin is not up to the task when it comes down to it. The best gel food I've tried was this "Rapashy food", which used algae as a binding agent as far as I can tell.
Truth be told, I now believe it would be alright to remove the large center vein, and the larger side veins, but the smaller tributary veins should be okay to leave in, as long as your blender does a good job of breaking them down - you could also pass the blended matter through a sieve to remove any potentially larger pieces if you felt the need.
As for your second question, I have always made my beefheart this way, until I aired this video. I had a professional chef comment on my technique, and now I feel a bit stupid about having done it this way. Yes, you are absolutely correct, that is is much easier to add EVERYTHING to the bowl, and then spread it out over the containers with parchment paper :P That is my current method, and I use the biggest soup pot I can find (preferably ceramic, not metal) and mix everything with a large wooden spoon, then dump it into portions over the shallow pots. Yes, agar-agar will work, and is more expensive, but it will work as well as the gelatin. You need to add enough gelatin to make the mixture liquidy, so that it will not cloud the water. It also helps to throw in the beefheart before it has had a chance to fully thaw, as that gets messy in the tank, once the fish start tearing it apart.
I scald the liver because it is an essential part of the nutrient mixture of this food, but if added raw, is an absolute mess, and instantly fouls the water. With a quick scalding, the protein sticks together quite well, and still retains most of the nutritional value. The beefheart on the other hand, is process into very fine "burger" meat, and even if dropped directly into the tank, will not foul it badly, so that is why I do it that way.
Sorry about the short reply, but I really do have to get to work. If I haven't answered everything to your satisfaction, please feel free to ask more, as often as you like, thanks for checking out the video, and I hope you and your fish enjoy the end product! :)
10. comment for Making my Time-tested and Proven Beefheart Discus Food Recipe (Good for Most Carnivorous Fish)
What strain are you getting from Mr. Tan?
Also, if you're feeding beefheart daily, always remember to keep up with tank maintenance, and clean the gravel (if you have gravel bottom) and do a partial water change once a week to keep things sanitary in your tank, and your fish will thank you for it :)
If you throw them into a tank too fast, with different pH or water temps, they will slowly die off from the shock. The way to introduce them, is to put them into a small container with the water they came in, then take some airline tubing, put a cloths clamp or a knot into the tubing, put one end into your tank, and SLOWLY drip the tank water into the container of Cardinals until it is full. Once it is full, dump out half of the water from their container, and continue dripping tank water in. Once it is full again, dump half and repeat. This may take several hours or more to do (the longer the better), but that way the Cardinals will survive the stress of changing water parameters - any other way and they usually die, and this may be true for the Hatchets as well. Also, Cardinals can grow to 2 inches or more, and at that size, Discus won't bother them, as well, when they are in a school, Discus will see the school as one big fish, and won't bother them either. But if they ever snack on one, and find out that they like the taste - they will all be eaten shortly, so it's kind of a gamble....your call.
Good to hear about the blues' reduced aggression as well! You are right about them being tricked into thinking that they are in a new environment, but also the cleaner water might have something to do with it as well? If you ever want to buy more red Discus, stay away from places like LiveAquaria - they are a business interested in one thing only, and that's $$$. Find a breeder of Discus only, and buy from them. Just google "Discus breeders in USA" or check out the ads or post a 'wanted' ad on SimplyDiscus - I know there are still home breeders on there who sell their fry, and are willing to ship. One guy has a stunning pair of red Discus, and his fry always sell out.
Anyhow, good to hear that everything is going well. Also good to hear that your Cardinals died in the QT tank rather than the main tank. Keep up the good work, and keep up the updates :)
All the cardinal tetras and all but 2 of the silver hatchet fish I got ended up dying in qt. Got them from LiveAquaria so I got my money back minus the shipping. I found a LFS that is a little bit of a drive but I am going to check with them and see if they have silver hachets. I think I am going to stay away from the Cardinal tetras, I think they will just end up snacks for my blue discus. Also the red checkerboard ended up dying. he got stuck in the driftwood while I was at work and when I found him he was dead, must have suffocated. I can't keep the red ones alive for the life of me. Everything else is going well the red scribblets eat like pigs, love the beef heart mixture. The tank change had another postive effect, it quelled the aggression of the other two blues, I think putting them in QT for a week and then re introducing them to the new setup tricked them into thinking it was a new environment.
I'm still looking forward to a video with the Hatchets and Tetras in there - should be a stunning tank! PS love that potted plant!
Your red checkerboard is the smallest of your Discus? If so, he is just at the bottom of the pecking order. All Cichlids establish a pecking order in any tank, and this is perfectly normal. As long as he is eating regularly, there is nothing to worry about.
You say there's a video somewhere??? I looked on your SimplyDiscus post, but didn't see it - where did you post it to? I'd love to check it out!
Absolutely I can add you to the list of people who want babies from this pair. I have been resting them in the 75 gallon, and will be putting them back into the breeder tank in a few weeks time. I have to ramp up my Whiteworm culture a bit before I put them in, as I use them heavily to condition the pair. As any Discus breeder can tell you - just because they bred once doesn't guarantee they'll do it again, so I am a bit nervous, but keeping my fingers crossed that they have had a long enough vacation, and are now ready to get down to business ;)
Can't wait for photo/video of your new BB tank! I guess you could post pictures on Simplydiscus....that site is still good for that at least :P
When you have all your Discus back in the main tank, and you have your QT tank back, don't forget to use it for your Tetras and Hatchets for a few weeks before adding them to your main tank, since they may be carrying ich or any number of pests just like any other fish. This will also give you a chance to slowly raise their tank temperatures to match your Discus tank, so they will be ready to be put straight in after quarantine without any stress on them.
Sounds like you have everything back under control, congratulations, and I am happy that I could help you - I'm also very surprised that nobody on simplydiscus even bothered to reply to your problem. In any case, you are on your way to being successful with Discus, make sure to let me know how it went, when you finally add all the fish to the main tank, and maybe a picture after you add the Tetras and Hatchets? ;)
For my 75 Gallon bare bottom with Discus (8 adult fish) I have one large sponge filter (approx 5" diameter) powered by an airstone, as well as one of those long blue airstones on the side of the tank for extra aeration - both powered by the same air pump.
Yes, you could also attach the sponge filter's top tube to the bottom (intake) of your HOB filter, and use that to power the sponge filter. This is actually a pretty good way to do it, as your sponge will act as a pre-filter, and will not allow food particles or detritus to enter the HOB, and once you clean out that HOB's media, the beneficial bacteria in it will polish your water nicely, while the outflow will provide aeration too. Since you have two HOB filters, you can take one apart and clean the media thoroughly, then attach the sponge to the bottom, and keep the second HOB running along side this system for a week or so, until the bacteria can establish themselves, then remove the dirty HOB filter, and you're in business! You can probably sell the second HOB filter, and get the money back for the price you paid for some of the other stuff.
With the sponge filters, depending on how heavily you feed your fish, how big they are, and how many fish you have, all you have to do is take it out once a week, pull off the sponge, and squeeze it 3 or 4 times in a bucket of clean tank water, to squeeze out some of the brown sediment within, and it's good to go back in the tank. You might be able to get away with doing this every 2 or even 3 weeks. The more important factor is regular water changes, and siphoning the bottom daily. Another tip to keep your water sparkling clean is to use a sponge (yellow/green dishwashing ones are fine - use the yellow sponge side) to wipe down all the walls and bottom of your tank once a week after siphoning the bottom. Then wait about 15 minutes to 1/2 hour, and you will see some fine sediment on the bottom from the wiped down sides. Siphon that off, then re-fill the tank with aged water, and your fish will love you for it. Keep up this routine, and you'll rarely if ever have sick fish again. Keep the updates/questions coming!
Because I'm suspecting that your root cause of the problem was simply bad water quality caused by food caught in the gravel, this means that you don't have to go crazy disinfecting your tank.
This is up to you, if you feel more comfortable doing a bleach scrub, and full water replacement, then by all means go for it, but I would think you would be just fine by removing all the gravel, and using a sponge to wipe down all the sides and bottom of the tank, as well as the heater, and air lines. Let the water settle for half an hour or so, then siphon all the debris from the bottom, and as much of the water as you feel comfortable with (as much as you have available to replace it with) then just wait for it to come back to the proper temperature, and you can re-introduce your Discus to the main tank.
As far as the filter is concerned - I don't think I ever asked you what you were using for a filter? If it's a sponge filter, then you can just put it into a bucket of clean water, and squeeze it several times until it stops 'bleeding' dirty water out of it, and you can put it back in the tank, and it should have most of the good bacteria still intact.
If you have an external canister type filter, then this might also be a cause to your water troubles - similar to having gravel on the bottom, a canister will trap waste particles in its media, which will slowly be consumed by the beneficial bacteria, but because the aquarium water is running through it all the time, if enough junk gets in there, it will be a perpetual cause of bad water in your Discus tank, no matter how many water changes you do. If you have one of these filters, you will need to take the media out, and rinse the media inside of a bucket full of aquarium water. Just toss the media inside, and swirl around, then dump the dirty water, and refill with clean - repeat until the water stays relatively clear after the rinse, then you can put the media back in, and the beneficial bacteria should still be okay.
If you're using a canister type filter, you cannot rely on it to keep your water clean. Think of it as a fine polisher of the water - it can take out fine particles suspended in the water column and keep the water sparkling clean - as long as you maintain a regular regime of religious water changes, where you siphon all the junk off the bottom. You will see that this will become very easy to do once you get rid of the gravel. With a bare bottom tank, a sponge filter will be all you will really need, and with a canister, it would be a good idea to rinse the media every other month or so to avoid any trouble.
Also, great thinking about putting a background on the bottom of the tank! You can pick up some craft paper from the dollar store or any craft store which you can cut to size, and tape to the bottom of your tank, and maybe the back and side(s) too if you like. You can also paint the outside of the glass any color you like (this will be more work to remove in the future). Either way, Discus will do much much better with the bottom covered, and will be much more uneasy without any bottom covering, so great thinking on that issue!! Also, keep in mind that the color you choose will affect the color of your fish. A black background/bottom will cause your fish to go very dark. A white background/bottom will do the opposite - making them seem pale and washed out. I would suggest a light green or blue or sand colored background (or one of those planted photograph type backgrounds from the pet store) to keep their colors nice, and show your red fish at their best against a contrasting background.
Anyhow, it looks like you are doing an excellent job of adapting to your fishes needs, and providing them with a healthy environment. Most people (and I've read the forums for decades) will never get to the point you are at right now, so congratulations, and keep up the great work!!! Also, keep the updates coming, good or bad, I love to hear how it is going for you and your fish! :) :) :)
It will only be a short time now, and all of them will be fine again. Keep up the great work!!
As for the fish in the hospital tank, there is no hard rule as to how long it will take them to come around. It may take two or three weeks or tomorrow they could all suddenly be eating again. The one good thing you have going for you is that at least one of them is eating. Discus will tend to do what they see other Discus doing. If one of them gets scared and starts dashing around the tank, the rest will do the same, if one or two decide to hang out in one corner of the tank, the rest will be there shortly. So if one of them is eating, the others will see this, and when they start to feel better, they will also start to eat. If you had any live food, this would be a good way to entice them to start eating. If you could get your hands on a white worm culture, this is an excellent food for Discus, which cannot introduce any harmful pathogens, is nutritious, and most Discus cannot resist them.
But if you keep doing what you are doing now, they should come around shortly, so just have patience. This is not easy to do, because you want the best for your fish, and you know they have to eat to stay healthy, but just keep the water quality up, and if the temperature is nice and comfy for the fish, they will get better. A little pinch of sea salt goes a long way to bringing them around too. Keep the updates coming....
As for your questions, you are probably better off leaving the 2 blues in the tank they are in right now, until the rest of your fish get back to health in the hospital tank, then when you put them back into the main tank, you can take the 2 blues out and repeat the medication process on them. Even though they are not showing any signs, they probably carry whatever pathogen caused your problems, and they will re-infect your healthy fish all over again if you don't do this. You will also need to disinfect your main tank before reintroducing your healthy fish, for the same reasons - we'll talk about that as the time gets nearer.
You are right to assume that the concentration of Prazipro will decrease with the water changes. You will have to add the same dosage of Prazi to your replacement water to compensate. Offhand I don't know the dosage, but if (for example) it was 1ml per Gallon and you just replaced 10 gallons, you'd have to add back 10ml of the Prazi.
Next question, yes it would be okay to add a few drops to the food even though you dosed today, Prazi is very forgiving, and you can have a bit more concentration in the fish's body without any harm.
Remember, that you will need to do two rounds of 5-7 days with this med. So after a week, stop medicating, give the fish fresh water for 3 or 4 days (whatever the instructions say) and then repeat the medication for another 5-7 days. This is because some parasites are resistant to the Prazi when they are in eggs/cysts - for example tapeworms - so the 3 days is to allow any eggs to hatch out, and then you hit them again with the Prazi, and everything should be erradicated!
As for the blue lobster, when everything is said and done with relocating and medicating your fish, maybe you could house him in your hospital tank? With a bare bottomed main tank, and regular water changes, the chances are you won't need it again. But lobsters/crayfish are known to harass fish at night, and can sometimes kill them, and really don't belong with Discus, as they are slow moving and easily startled/stressed......maybe it's time to look into getting some more tanks? ;)
Aging the water in the garage has another problem - it's probably very far from your fish tank? This will make it inconvenient in the long run, and you will start to skimp on water changes maybe? If you can only keep it in the garage, just insulate the ouside of the can with some styrofoam or pink wall insulation foam, or even wrap it in a blanket, and stand it on something insulated, like wood or styrofoam.
The nice thing about aging your water is that you will not need to add the water conditioner any more. Don't forget to give the garbage can a good scrub down and rinse it thoroughly to remove any possible contaminants which may have been added when the garbage can was made or in the store it came from - cleaning agents, waxes, etc.
It sounds like your fish will soon all be better in this hospital tank - have you decided on what you are going to do with the 75 gallon tank yet?
The fact that the Red Scribblets are playful is a very good sign. The color loss of the Checkerboard is probably due to the fact that he hasn't eaten in so long (red color is enhanced with the food) and also, the white poo can be a sign of intestinal parasites, which the Prazipro may clear up. You can try giving them a tiny piece of beefheart mixture just before you are going to do a waterchange. Give them about 5 minutes to eat it, if they don't touch it, or they peck at it, and make a mess, but don't eat it, that's fine, just siphon it out and do the 30% water change, and no harm done. Once you do the Prazipro treatment, their appetite may just return on its own. If they do eat it, carefully observe which fish are eating, and which are not, that will give you further information as to their individual health.
Discus are biologically programmed to not eat much for months at a time. In the Amazon, they are often stranded in small pools for months without food during the dry season, then when the rainy season returns, they will bounce back on their own. The only exception is, if they are juveniles, then they should have something to peck at from time to time.
Keep up the good work, and keep me posted.
You are feeding nothing right now, and doing about 50% water changes is that right? Still adding salt? What is the current temperature of that tank?
Also, about your heater, you will be hard pressed to find a 100 watt heater that goes that high - 100 watts just isn't powerful enough to put out that kind of heat. For Discus, you usually have to go with more wattage than the heater manufacturer calls for. So if you have a 20 gallon tank, don't buy a heater rated for a 20 gallon tank, buy one which is rated for a 30 or 40 gallon tank, and up the watts rating - so try a 150 watt. Most Discus keepers will agree with you, that it is difficult to find heaters which go high enough for our fish - especially when they get sick and we have to raise the temps to the 90's
. I have had moderate success with the Ebo Jager brand of heaters (meaning that they will work, if you buy one that is functional, but their company's quality control is less than stellar, and 1 of 3 heaters will have some sort of problem)
I shudder to think how many times a heater has stuck on, and cooked my fish, or somehow the best fish in the tank found a way to jump out overnight, and I found it in the morning dried up on the floor, or some sudden unknown illness starts killing fish after fish or the power goes off for the day, and there's nothing you can do but watch and hope for the best.....and then there's breeding - which is a whole new ball game, full of it's own unique challenges!
It's all part of the process of learning about these fish, and how to be a better fishkeeper for them. So don't feel too bad about it, just learn from it, and make the changes you think you need to make. Hopefully we can salvage your fish, and get you on the road to success.
I'm by no means an expert in fish disease or illness - my strategy is to keep them healthy, so that they never get sick (it's much easier that way). However, I do have a few tips and tricks, and I know a thing or two about healing them, so I will try to help as much as I can. Keep me updated about how your fish are responding!
I'm sorry about SimplyDiscus - ten years ago, it was THE place to go to for Discus hobbyists, but lately, fewer and fewer people seem to reach out on the site, because it seems that everything has already been said. If you go to their search function, you can type in almost any question you may have, and there will be multiple answers in the archives for you. It can be a steep learning curve for beginners learning to care for Discus, and this site used to be the holy grail for those looking for information, but if you go through the archives you can still learn A LOT.
If you can't get another tank, and you don't want to do a bare bottom tank, then consider using a very fine sand rather than gravel, so that the food and detritus cannot get lost in between the particles.
There are many options for a bare bottomed tank too - you can paint the bottom, or cut a peice of colored paper to fit the bottom to make it look nice. You can put in driftwood with plants such as Anubias or Java Ferns attached to it, you can even put in a few flower pots with potted aquarium plants right into the tank.
If you do a BB tank, you will quickly realize just how much waste product your fish are producing each hour, and with the warmer water, that waste can and will wreak havoc on your water parameters. Keep that in mind if you decide to keep a substrate - Discus are very easy fish to keep, as long as the water they are in is absolutely clean, all the time, no exceptions! If it isn't, they will get sick - period.
That is why people think they are a hard fish to keep, because, unless you have the unwavering discipline to keep up with water changes, despite whatever may be happening in your life, then your fish will not do well. That, and good nutrition, is the only real 'secret' to these fish, and if you stick to a strict water quality routine, your fish will never get sick, will thrive, and eventually even spawn for you!
Good to hear that your one fish is starting to come around! Keep up with the clean water changes, and the rest of the Discus will follow suit. Contrary to what people think, they are a pretty tough and resilient fish! Also, you should really consider aging your water if at all possible. You said it comes out at 7.6 and settles in the tank at 7.4 which doesn't sound like much, but pH works on a logarithmic scale, so a small change in value is actually huge to the fish, who don't like the yo-yo effect of fluctuating pH. All you have to do is have a couple of those blue water cooler bottles (the kind they use in office buildings at the water cooler) each one is 5 gallons. You just fill it from your tub or sink, and throw a heater down the neck of the bottle (and maybe an airstone too), and let it sit for a day before you take the heater out, and use the water for your next water change. If you have two of those bottles, you can do a 50% water change on your 20 gallon tank every day, and that should be enough to keep your Discus happy, and have them recovering in no time!
Well, I have to get some rest before I'm off working on the railroad again, keep me posted on your Discus' progress, just reply to this thread, I check it my youtube page at least once a day, and try to respond as soon as possible, especially if it's about sick fish, such as what you are going through.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?25542-Bare-is-best-first-then-dress-up&highlight=bare+bottom+gravel
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?95200-bare-bottom-tank&highlight=bare+bottom+gravel
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?94014-extolling-the-virtues-of-having-a-bare-bottom&highlight=bare+bottom+gravel
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?92920-bare-bottom-tanks&highlight=bare+bottom+gravel
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?121813-Changing-to-bare-bottom-tank&highlight=bare+bottom+gravel
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120961-Bare-bottom-vs-sand&highlight=bare+bottom+gravel
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?112609-Your-thoughts-sand-or-gravel&highlight=bare+bottom+gravel
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?107101-Barebottom-or-keep-gravel&highlight=bare+bottom+gravel
You say you put the Discus Hans fish into the tank at the end of Jan. and now it's near the end of Feb, so that's about 4 weeks. That's about how long it will take the average healthy Discus to start showing signs of illness. This doesn't mean that the problem has just started, it means that the problem has been around for several weeks, in order for them to change from normal healthy fish, to fish who lose color and stop eating. It will also take almost that long for them to start looking and acting better, even if you start fixing the problem immediately.
I'm going to give you my brutally honest opinion of your situation, so please don't get offended....
The fish you bought from LiveAquaria are lesser quality fish. No offense to this particular site (I do not know for sure) but for the most part, sites like this, will buy fish from breeders in bulk. They will not buy the breeder's A grade fish, and probably not even B grade, but C and D grade fish, and that way they get a better price. Then these sites will sell the fish individually for exorbitant amounts of money. (I have visited the site, and at least this part checks out) This is the way breeders rid themselves of stunted fish, and those fish with less desirable traits such as bad color, fins or body shapes - usually the eyes appear to be too large for the fish's body - a sign of slow growth. A lot of less scrupulous Asian Discus breeders will sell their fish to sites like this, without a second thought as to the well-being of their fish, because all they care about is making money.
I know what you are thinking - but those are the fish that are doing well! Correct. Because those fish have come from a poor environment to begin with, and are accustomed to lesser quality water, have been over-medicated, and have a higher resistance to diseases than their siblings did (the siblings are the fish which probably died shortly after being delivered to the website's holding facilities), and likely that is the reason one of your fish died - it was at the end of it's ability to cope with it all. These fish are often injected with hormones so that they show an abnormal amount of coloration, even when they are younger individuals, which will trick you into thinking that everything is okay with them once you get them home - and by the time 4 weeks is up and they start showing signs of problems, the website's warranty is long over.
Okay, now that that's out of the way, the next step is you introduced new fish from Discus Hans. I know him, and he is a reputable breeder. You should have bought all your fish from him, or someone like him. His fish are well cared for, healthy and free of disease or pathogens, and are used to pristine water conditions, and bare bottomed tanks, etc. So when you put them into lesser quality water, with the stress factors, they will be the first fish to show signs of stress and unhappiness. You also didn't quarantine these fish - big mistake! You should always put new fish into a quarantine tank for (my opinion) about 3 months. If all is well after that, introduce one fish from your higher valued fish into the tank with your lesser valued fish, and give them a month together. If all is well, you can probably add the rest, with relative confidence that nobody is carrying some weird parasite or disease. The way you did it, you will never know if Hans' fish caught something from your existing fish (quite possible) or vice versa, or if the bloodworms were the culprit, or simple water quality.
I believe you when you say that you monitor your water quality, and do frequent water changes, but a gravel bottom is always a recipe for disaster with Discus, just google it and read some of the debates and experiments done out there.
So you still havent answered the question - do you age your water before putting it into the tank??
Also, since you bought your last batch of fish from Hans, he stands behind his fish. I strongly urge you to look him up and give him a call. Ask him his opinion of gravel in a Discus tank, and ask him what you think might be wrong with your fish. He is a very knowledgeable man, and very willing to chat with his customers, and I am sure he will reiterate many of the suggestions and comments I have made here.
Have you put your fish into a hospital tank yet?
First things first. Juvenile Discus need large amounts of protein-rich food to grow properly and be healthy. This means you almost absolutely need a bare bottom tank, because the amount of detritus that you will need to siphon out from the left-over food and feces in the water will be significant, and will definitely affect your water quality = make your fish sick. Especially with beefheart, the leftover food particles are tiny, and will find their way deep into the gravel, where they will quickly foul the water at the high temperatures needed to keep Discus...
It's almost a guarantee you will have problems with a gravel bottom!!!
Young Discus need to be raised in a bare bottom tank with maximum water changes, and maximum amounts of small feedings every day, where they will be able to eat all of the food given to them in 10 minutes or less. If there is still food left over after 10 minutes, feed less next time, and siphon the remaining food out immediately.
When your Discus reach adult size, you can keep them in a gravel bottom tank (still very risky) if you have plants in there, and a cleanup crew (Plecos usually) and with small feedings, and constant water monitoring, it is possible.
You also have fish in there that shouldn't be in there, like the solitary tetra - most tetras are schooling fish, and will be stressed out by being alone, therefore becoming sick, and passing it on to other fish in the tank such as the Discus.
The Rainbowfish will chase other fish, stressing them further. The blue lobster will be active at night, as will the catfish, stressing the Discus further, and causing them to suspend high off the bottom, and again in a stressed state.
I am guessing by your reading the pH value straight out of the tap, that you are doing water changes right out of the tap? Very bad idea. Your municipality will from time to time add stuff to your water without telling you, and your fish will be instantly affected by it when you add water straight to your tank. This is especially true in the winter months. You will need a plastic tub or barrel or even plastic garbage can in which to pour your tap water into, aerate it, heat it to the same temp as your tank water, and only after 24 hours of sitting, letting the chlorine escape, and the pH levels stabilize should you use this water for your Discus water changes.
Sorry for the long-winded response, but if you want your Discus to survive this, and then eventually thrive for you, put them into the largest tank you can, high temperatures, lots of small air bubbles (one of those long blue stones is great) and lots of water changes with aged water, with a teaspoon of sea salt added each day, and no food for at least 3 or 4 days, then try a tiny spec of beefheart or freeze dried blackworms (no more bloodworms for now) and when they start pecking at the food, you can try some PraziPro soaked into the food, and in another week or so, you should see them coming around. Keep the tank dimly lit, mabey throw a towel over one end so they feel secure, and don't stress them by checking in on them every few minutes, just let them recover. When they do start eating and looking healthy again (and they will) don't put them back into the gravel bottomed tank, or they will go right back to being sick again, and this time it will be harder to get them back around again....also take the 2 "healthy" Discus out of your big tank and put them with the others. Although they are not yet showing symptoms, they are most definately also affected the same way as the other fish are. Keeping them in a larger school in the hospital tank will also help them to feel more at ease. Check out my angelfish video towards the end, you will see an example of some of my water aging containers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWGSE6shVnY
Also, don't be discouraged, as this happens to almost every beginning Discus keeper, and sometimes to seasoned pros as well.
Keep me posted on how your fish are doing, and best of luck!
I should ask, what are your water parameters if you know them? Water hardness, pH, and previous water change schedule, as well as how old are your Discus, and how long have you had them, plus where did you get them from?
Okay, don't panic. First thing is to discontinue all the food for now -especially the bloodworms, and don't randomly medicate with anything for now. You will need to immediately start to increase your water temperature gradually until it is in the high 80's to low 90's if your heater will get you there (if not, buy one that will). Make sure you have plenty of aeration since water at that temperature will not hold much oxygen for your fish. Have a tub of water nearby where you can add water, age it for a day, and put a heater in there to bring it up to high 80's to low 90's, and I can't stress this enough - use this water to do as many WATER CHANGES, WATER CHANGES, WATER CHANGES as you can to keep your water immaculately clean. Three water changes of 30% of the water per day would not be too much. If your fish were healthy, you could potentially do much less water changes, but once they get sick, you need to overdo the water changes to nurse them back to health. Only when they are in the optimum water conditions, can their bodies begin to fight back to whatever is ailing them! You can add a couple of teaspoons of sea salt to the bottom of the tank each day - the fish may peck at it, and it may help relieve some of their discomfort....that's the first few steps, but more importantly, do the following.....
An excellent source of help for your fish can be found by joining this web forum
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/
once you've joined, you can log in, and go to their disease and sickness forum, fill out the questionnaire, follow the advice ofsome of the experts on the site (look at the # of posts, to determine who is who, or follow the advice of moderators only if you're not sure who to trust)
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?319-Disease-Sickness-and-Medication
That should get you and your fish started on the road to recovery. Remember, if they need to ingest a medication, you can thaw some of the beef heart, and soak it in the dosage of medication, then slightly re-freeze it, and feed it to the fish. This is ONLY once they start eating again - if they aren't eating at all, then forget this, or any other food, as it will only foul your water, and do your fish no good at all. Adult Discus can go several weeks without eating a single bit of food. Best of luck, keep me posted with how your fish are doing, and start taking action right now, the sooner you start, the better their chances are!!
A couple of things I wanted to comment on;
first, regarding the peas, try putting in a tablespoon of the liquefied lettuce, then put them through the processor, it helps with the process.
second, if you have red Discus, try to get your hands on some Xanthophyll, Astaxanthin, or feed every other day with some Krill or even Tetra Color Bits food. All of these will hugely enhance the red color in your fish.
third, I have heard that some manufacturers of Bloodworms harvest them from very unsanitary conditions, and their guts are loaded with some nasty stuff, which could potentially make your fish sick. I have heard of some fish contracting Hex from such food. I am confident in the Hikari brand, as are many other Discus breeders, so just be cautious with your brand, and watch your fish carefully - if they start to lose their appetite, or stop eating altogether, you will have to medicate them, and your bloodworms would be my first suspect.
and lastly, about the Salmon. I used to use Salmon too. It is an excellent source of protein and good fats for your fish, if it is wild. The trouble is, I went out west to British Columbia in 2013, and I saw the wild Sockeye making their runs, and dying in the river for no apparent reason, still full of eggs. I didn't know why, and I started poking around on the internet. I found this documentary, and I will never use Salmon again, not wild, and definitely not farmed. The diseases they harbor thanks to the fish farms is not something I want my fish to be exposed to, but this is a personal choice, and if all you can find is Salmon, then it is still better than nothing. Check out this documentary and you will see what I mean....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTbxOFcvC4U
Again, great to hear that your fish are enjoying the food, any other questions, feel free to ask anytime.
That being said, once the eggs hatch into wigglers, I start to slowly add a cup or two of aged tap water with every water change, and by the time they are free-swimming, I start aiming for 50/50 tap/RO, and with every water change thereafter, I keep adding less RO and more tap water to the aging tubs, until at about 2 weeks of age, the fry and parents are in 100% aged tap water. The young fish grow better with minerals in the water, and it is easier to do large water changes using readily available tap water. The parent fish don't mind it either, as long as it is aged for 24 hours prior to the water change being done (aging removes Chlorine, aerates, brings it to the right temperature, and stabilizes the pH)
I also use RO water to breed many of my aquarium fish such as Angelfish, Corys, Tetras of all kinds, Betas, and even BN Plecos seem to breed more readily in this water. I Use the "bad" water which is harder than straight tap water, to breed African Cichlids and other fish which like harder water. Hope this helps, and keep the questions coming if you have them - that's why I started making these videos, to help fellow hobbyists out.