Making my Time-tested and Proven Beefheart Discus Food Recipe (Good for Most Carnivorous Fish)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EySu18EjLkY EDIT: Since Youtube has discontinued "annotations" meaning that I can no longer use clickable links inside my videos, the links you see in this video will no longer work. You can copy and paste the above URL to see the meat processing video if you should want to do so. I apologize for the inconvenience that this is now causing - as opposed to the very convenient annotation format which we were offered by Youtube at the time that this video was produced. This is a step-by-step tutorial on how to make my version of a cheap, yet highly nutritious, meat-based food for your Discus fish, and other meat-eating tropical fish. This recipe has been tweaked by myself over and over for almost two decades, until I arrived at this formula, which seems to work on all levels...... It is fairly simple to make, the fish love it, it doesn't foul or cloud the water, it has all the nutrients/vitamins etc which the fish require, and it will help to condition your fish to breed. I feed this to my Discus, Angelfish, and various Tetras. I have fed it in the past to Red-Bellied Piranhas, African Cichlids, Catfish and carnivorous Plecos, and I'm sure there are other fish which will readily accept this inexpensive and nutritious staple food. You will notice that I don't use exact measurements for anything. This is not a gourmet cake - it is an approximated mixture of meat, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, greens and roughage held together with gelatin and flavored with a touch of garlic (optional). It will vary slightly in composition every time I make it, but that is the way fish feed in the wild - variety is the norm, so a bit more liver in one recipe and a bit less lettuce in another, will keep the fish interested in eating the food over the long run. It is also important to vary your fish feedings, never feeding ONLY beefheart....nobody wants to eat only one type of food every day, and our fish are no exception. Keeping our fish happy will cause them to show their best colors and promote breeding, which is the focus of my youtube channel. Every ingredient and every method in my recipe has been thoroughly researched, and I believe the result is near perfection. There are specific reasons for using certain ingredients, and also for not using others (such as spinach or shrimp). I sometimes cringe at some of the other beefheart videos out there when I see people adding things that have no place in the Discus tank or any other fish tank. If anyone has any questions about anything at all in my recipe, or your own, please feel free to ask. Thanks, have fun making your own fish food, and enjoy the video (sorry about the long and boring parts) ;)

Making my Time-tested and Proven Beefheart Discus Food Recipe (Good for Most Carnivorous Fish) sentiment_very_dissatisfied 14

Discus 9 years ago 27,208 views

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EySu18EjLkY EDIT: Since Youtube has discontinued "annotations" meaning that I can no longer use clickable links inside my videos, the links you see in this video will no longer work. You can copy and paste the above URL to see the meat processing video if you should want to do so. I apologize for the inconvenience that this is now causing - as opposed to the very convenient annotation format which we were offered by Youtube at the time that this video was produced. This is a step-by-step tutorial on how to make my version of a cheap, yet highly nutritious, meat-based food for your Discus fish, and other meat-eating tropical fish. This recipe has been tweaked by myself over and over for almost two decades, until I arrived at this formula, which seems to work on all levels...... It is fairly simple to make, the fish love it, it doesn't foul or cloud the water, it has all the nutrients/vitamins etc which the fish require, and it will help to condition your fish to breed. I feed this to my Discus, Angelfish, and various Tetras. I have fed it in the past to Red-Bellied Piranhas, African Cichlids, Catfish and carnivorous Plecos, and I'm sure there are other fish which will readily accept this inexpensive and nutritious staple food. You will notice that I don't use exact measurements for anything. This is not a gourmet cake - it is an approximated mixture of meat, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, greens and roughage held together with gelatin and flavored with a touch of garlic (optional). It will vary slightly in composition every time I make it, but that is the way fish feed in the wild - variety is the norm, so a bit more liver in one recipe and a bit less lettuce in another, will keep the fish interested in eating the food over the long run. It is also important to vary your fish feedings, never feeding ONLY beefheart....nobody wants to eat only one type of food every day, and our fish are no exception. Keeping our fish happy will cause them to show their best colors and promote breeding, which is the focus of my youtube channel. Every ingredient and every method in my recipe has been thoroughly researched, and I believe the result is near perfection. There are specific reasons for using certain ingredients, and also for not using others (such as spinach or shrimp). I sometimes cringe at some of the other beefheart videos out there when I see people adding things that have no place in the Discus tank or any other fish tank. If anyone has any questions about anything at all in my recipe, or your own, please feel free to ask. Thanks, have fun making your own fish food, and enjoy the video (sorry about the long and boring parts) ;)

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Most popular comments
for Making my Time-tested and Proven Beefheart Discus Food Recipe (Good for Most Carnivorous Fish)

Craig Woodhull
Craig Woodhull - 6 years ago
Try using baby food peas. No husks to remove GREAT VID. ! Marc Weiss shows and says Beef heart has NO nutritional value, use Chicken liver . Check out his Vid. The man was into Discus before i was. (prob. about 55 plus years ) Just add vits . and you have got it !!!!!
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 6 years ago
I always blanche my greens before putting them into the mix. I just finished washing my hands after another few months worth of food is now setting up in the freezer before going into bags later on today.
I also have added other interesting ingredients to my mixes in the past, such as clams, squid, mussels, lobster, crayfish, snails, octopus, and many different types of saltwater fish. They were met with varying degrees of success. Sometimes the fish didn't care for it at all (in one case I added too much spirulina powder and the mix turned an ugly shade of green, and in another case, I added too much garlic and the fish shunned it). Sometimes it turned out that the ingredients had an excessively short shelf life in the freezer, or fouled the tank too much, so I kept tweaking the formula and came up with this one which works splendidly, and I do modify it from time to time (or some small percentage of it as a test) , as certain items become available/in season (=cheap)....this time, I did a test with baby peas, and I think it will turn out just fine.
I have tried to cut out the BH altogether in the past, but I found that the food didn't stand up well in the tank, and when BH was included, the fish waste looked firmer, darker, and more healthy to me, so I continue to use it to this day, although in smaller amounts then I did in the past.
I also have tried using worms in the past. I don't like chopping them, and they don't freeze well at all, so now I keep several cultures of white worms going, and I feed every day with freeze-dried blackworms, and as a treat, some frozen bloodworms from time to time. The red wigglers, and nightcrawlers that I have tons of, are now used strictly as bait when I'm fishing ;)
I've never had issues with bloating because my BH is minced up super fine, and I don't feed any one thing exclusively. My fish never know what's next on the menu, and that way they stay interested in eating, and always are alert when I step anywhere near the tank :D
This year I am going to try netting glassworms from the surface of the lake I live near - just waiting for the ducks to give me the signal that these insects are at the surface - when I see them all skimming the surface with their beaks...any day now. I know fish love these things, and I can net out and freeze tons of the stuff.
I also collect ant eggs and freeze them in the right season - they are packed with protein and vitamins, and the fish go crazy for them.
Sorry, I rambled a bit there....I tend to do that when I talk about something I'm passionate about :)
Craig Woodhull
Craig Woodhull - 6 years ago
My next batch of Discus food will be EARTH WORMS !!!! Gp water the lawn and up they come. Put them in a bucket , shred up a news paper. put it all in a five gallon bucket . in a month it will be FULL,(just keep adding paper).. Add fish shrimp baby peas from the market , If you see ANY other greens gab as well. Discus eat greens and worms in the wild. DO not forget to add hot , hot water to kill any bacteria. WARNING ! this will go right through your fish as it will be way more natural No bloating, mote W/C's
Craig Woodhull
Craig Woodhull - 6 years ago
The King of DIY (Joey) uses beet heart as well. The fish love it BUT it is hard to digest. I like ANY fish that is on sale (the fatter the better), Shrimp, Clams Scallops, erc. and the eggs also vitimins. They say beef heart is to hard to diguest and can cause bloating. I don't use it, i am a fish and more fish kind of guy vitimins egg.. Shrimp and clams all work as well.
Woody's Discus (FB)
devgiri prasad
devgiri prasad - 6 years ago
Sir, thank you for your reply, so far I have not used beef heart recipe food for any of my discus. All these years I have been feeding my discus with Omega one super colour flakes, Discus bio gold and Australian dried freeze Black worms. Shortly I am going to add Northfin food too. But somebody told me that nothing like beef heart, the reason why I want to try with Goat heart recipe is because recently I brought few more adult and juvenile discus and they were fed with beef heart due to my own personal reasons I cannot feed beef heart, instead I am planning to feed them with your recipe but you have spoken of Solomon fish. I can get white shrimps and Solomon fish but I am not sure whether they are farm raised or caught from the wild. I cannot trust the shop keeper. Instead of Solomon what other fish would you suggest? I am glad other than you there are many more learned people here giving valid suggestions. I am thankful to them. Sir, I wish to send some of my discus pictures to you. This is my email id: devgirimysore@gmail.com. I was not sure that you would answer my query therefore I searched for you under “Breeding Aquarium fish” in Toronto discus fish forum but I could not find you. Well, once I get agar powder and cookie tray I will give a try with the recipe.
devgiri prasad
devgiri prasad - 6 years ago
Sir, i did made a google search over salmon and there are certain fishes listed under Indian sea fish: one among them is Indian salmon, like you said it is expensive, i have already brought this fish and stored in the freezer, I even spoke to the shop keeper from where they get this fish, he said they get it from coastal areas. Now i am in a dilemma whether to go ahead with the goat heart recipe or should i stop and continue with the branded food, because i don't want to put the lives of my discus into danger. More than my fish i get into stress seeing my fish not eating. waiting for your answer. thank you.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 6 years ago
devgiri prasad, I would be happy to see pictures of your fish, I will send you an email shortly from my address. I used to be very active in the discus forums, especially Simplydiscus.com however, over the last 2 decades, I believe I have read and re-read the same questions and advice so many times, that it has lost some of it's appeal. You can find some of my posts under my name of Fish Fin-atic, if you are interested.
I think all of the foods you are feeding your fish are excellent, and adding beef...um....goatheart recipe to their diet, should add some growth and size to your fish. It is especially beneficial to your young fish, as they will grow the fastest on this food, no question about it!
The fish you are asking about, is spelled "Salmon" and unfortunately, unless you are from a part of the world where this fish is found wild (Northern Europe, Canada, USA) you will not be able to get the wild version of this food very easily or cheaply. The same goes for the shrimp. Unfortunately, these days, almost all of the Salmon and Shrimp found in the stores are farmed. The reason you don't want to use these is because they are treated with numerous chemicals and medications, and are fed with the worst food possible, which is what your fish will be eating and therefore, a very bad choice of ingredients for this recipe!
If you cannot find wild Salmon, go to your local store, and look for any fatty saltwater fish, which cannot be farmed. Really, the species of fish does not matter, but coldwater and saltwater species are what you want, because fresh water fish can have pathogens, parasites, etc, which can transfer to your Discus, and potentially kill them! Do a quick google search on your species of fish, and make sure it doesn't contain too much heavy metals such as Tuna which have very high Mercury levels. Something like a flounder, Halibut, Cod, even Makerel should work very well. I suggest trying a small batch first, to make sure your Discus will accept the fish in the recipe - maybe even throw in a small piece of your selected fish into the tank for 20 minutes or so, and observe to see that your Discus will eventually start to pick at it, and accept it as food. As for the shrimp, if you cannot find wild, you can try using other ocean foods such as clams, mussels, octopus, squid, etc... you should quickly boil these before using in the recipe in place of the shrimp. Most of those foods are not farmed, and if they are, it will be in the semi-wild of the ocean, without chemicals, or pesticides.
I hope I have answered your questions, but if not, or if you have more, please feel free to drop me a line here, and I will answer - I check my youtube daily, but my email, maybe once a week or month :)
devgiri prasad
devgiri prasad - 6 years ago
sir, can i use goat heart instead of beef heart with the same ingredients as shown in your video.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 6 years ago
I have never tried goat heart, but it should be okay to use. You just have to make sure to remove all veins and gristle and especially hard fat. As long as the goat does not have an unpleasant taste or smell to your fish, they should eat it without trouble. I have heard of people using chicken and/or turkey hearts as well for this formula, and they say it works.
If you try the goat heart, please write back, and let me know if it works for you, or if it doesn't. It could help others in the future, if they ever want to try goat - good luck!
Sayed Mohamd
Sayed Mohamd - 6 years ago
Probably the best video about discus food. Thanks a lot.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 6 years ago
Thank-you for the kind words, I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed it, and I hope it helps you and your fish :)
Aqua Wild
Aqua Wild - 7 years ago
Any substitute for lettuce ?? any spinach varieties ?
Aqua Wild
Aqua Wild - 6 years ago
Breeding Aquarium Fish hahaha thanks hope the fish will be breed like yours one day. Yup sure :D
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 6 years ago
Now I am convinced that you are truly an aquarium enthusiast....aka Fish Fin-atic, like myself :D
Just like a true aquarium fin-atic, you will stop at nothing to make sure your fish are well-cared for, healthy, and happy, and you want to see them breed for you :D :D :D
I wish I could put up an emojee with 2 hands clapping :) :) :)
I also wish I could offer you some advice about growing lettuce....but all I know is that it likes cool soil, so maybe some shade over the garden, and other than that, I wish you all the best of luck, and as always, please let me know how it turns out for you :) :) :)
Aqua Wild
Aqua Wild - 6 years ago
Breeding Aquarium Fish yea I'm trying to find lettuce seeds for growing them.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 6 years ago
Ah, so it is likely too warm and dry, where you live to grow lettuce easily?
Aqua Wild
Aqua Wild - 6 years ago
Breeding Aquarium Fish Tamil Nadu, India
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 6 years ago
You can probably use the spinach if you blanch it and drain off the water. Discus breeders in the 90's swore by this method, and their fish were fine for the most part. However, there are still people who believe that the once common disease of Discus, called "Hole-in-the-head" was caused by an imbalance of minerals/vitamins, caused by the addition of Spinach. Maybe if you can find the baby spinach, it won't be as bad, but lettuce can easily be grown, pretty much anywhere, and it only takes 3 weeks or so, until you have a nice large plant - maybe that's an option for you? If all else fails, and you don't want to use the spinach, just leave out the greens altogether.
That's the beauty of this hobby - lots and lots of room for experimentation, and the joy of finding something that works well for you (and others). PS, if you don't mind me asking, what part of the world are you in?
Aqua Wild
Aqua Wild - 7 years ago
Breeding Aquarium Fish lettuce is not a common in my place can be found in burger and others stuff. We have plenty of spinach variety and is common that's why I asked for the lettuce substitute :D . I'll let you know when I try them
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
About 20 years ago when I first made this recipe, I used Spinach, as it was supposed to be an excellent source of Iron, and good roughage for the fish. Several prominent breeders have pointed to studies done around the world, which seem to indicate that Spinach leaches Calcium from the fish's bones and blood and does more harm than good. The next best source of Iron and good green roughage, is red lettuce; when blanched, it is perfectly digestible, and provides minerals, and does not leach anything out of the fish. It is also really good at "liquifying" the meat mixture when it is in the blender, without the need to add water to the mixture, so it's a win/win. I think you can also use the green "table salad" type lettuce, but if you look at data comparing green to red lettuce, the red is much higher in vitamin/mineral content, with every other factor staying the same. I have also heard of people using kelp and other salt-water based algeas and seaweeds, where they rinse all the salt off, and blanch, then add to the formula - I have never tried this, so I can't verify it, all I can say is that the tried and true method is red lettuce, with some extra green peas for a bit more roughage. Again, if you want to experiment, try doing a small batch with something else, and see if it works. This is how everyone did it in the early days of Discus keeping. Every week someone would have a new recipe with carrots or bananas, or paprika, or some other new "secret" ingredient which they thought would set their fish apart from the others, but over the years, I've done my research on each ingredient, listened to many many hobbyists' opinions on the matter, and have landed on this recipe as the one that seems to work flawlessly, every time.
Please let me know if you try something else, and it works - I'm always happy to learn :) Oh yeah, also remember that just because you make the recipe, doesn't mean that the fish will actually eat it LOL I've seen some formulas which were snubbed by fish - even when they were hungry, and would happily eat anything else (including other recipe beefhearts) so if you experiment with this recipe, do it in small batches :D
James Tetreault
James Tetreault - 7 years ago
Put the mix directly into the zip lock bags and flatten them out to 3mm or so thickness then freeze. The end product will be of consistent thickness and already portioned into smaller amounts. The thinner product will be easier to separate into small enough pieces to feed.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
LOL well, it seems that you've created a new Tiger Barb food, and Molly and Guppy supplement :D At least the food won't go to waste - I wouldn't be surprised if your Barbs and live-bearers start breeding like crazy soon! Good meeting you as well, thanks for sharing the experiment, and happy fish keeping to you as well :)
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
Awww :( Sorry to hear that! Well, thanks for sharing your results; at least now we know that doing it this way doesn't quite work. There is probably some way of preventing the mixture from breaking up in the water - after all, they make flake and pellet food which doesn't do this, but I have no idea how it's done. Sorry to hear, but thanks again for sharing!
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
Good luck! :D
PS, the butchers/meat counters around me will let me pre-order beef heart if I know I'm making it next week, I will let the butcher know how many I need, and I can be sure that he will have it for me. Just a suggestion if you're dead set on using the heart.
I've also been through the situation you're in (unable to find heart meat) so I laugh, but I'm laughing with you, not at you :D :D :D
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
The beefheart is used mainly as a binder to hold the liver and fish together, and the reason we use the meat of the heart muscle is because it has the least fat of any other cut of beef. You can use the next best thing, which is the "eye of round" cut, which is from the rear of the cow, and is a well-exercised muscle, therefore low in fat. Just make sure you cut out all the fat (just like from the heart) and when you grind it up in the blender, mix it around, and try to remove any smaller bits of fat that you might find. You should always be able to get an "eye of round" cut at the store.
I have heard of people trying to use pig hearts, but because of the diet that some farmers will feed their pigs, this meat is inherently worse to use than beef heart, and is also more fatty than the beef heart is.
I have also heard of people using chicken and/or turkey hearts (sometimes you can buy a large bag of them at the butcher. These might even be a better choice than pig heart in my opinion.
Remember, the heart is just a binder - a component used to hold the rest together, so you can get away with using less of it, or less of whatever you choose to be the substitute for it.
I can't wait to hear how this turns out :)
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
Okay, thanks for making me feel like an old man :) :) :) LOL....I am on a laptop, but I will do my best to visit playstore and get some emoticon downloads :) Looking forward to your results with this technique ... keeping my fingers crossed :)
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
I'm always glad to help a fellow aquarium hobbyist, and hopefully, you can help me (and anyone who reads this in the future) by posting your results, and letting us all know how the experiment went :) I wish you the best of luck, and hopefully this works, so that anyone without a freezer can make this food and keep it for a reasonable length of time.
PS how do you get the emojies in your reply - I have not been able to figure this out yet LOL
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
Hmmm.....I have never heard of anything other than freezing the beefheart, so that when you thaw it, it is still moist, and full of all the enzimes (which would be destroyed by high heat if it was baked).
I have a dehydrator machine, and have been wanting to try dehydrating the formula. This would remove the water (without excess heat) and shrink the meat mix to a tough, dry consistency. When re-hydrated (by putting in the tank water) it should return to almost the same form as it was before dehydration.
I have not yet tried this method, but it might work for you. If you don't have a dehydrator machine, you can put the meat in an oven on the lowest setting, and leave the door open just a little, and maybe put an electric fan inside the oven so that warm air is constantly blowing over the meat. If you cut the meat into thin, and small pieces, this process should dehydrate them in a few hours. You test them by snapping one, if it bends, then there is still too much moisture in it, if it snaps, and is brittle, then it is done.
If you tightly seal the dried meat in plastic bags (preferably air removed), this should last without refrigeration for several months. The only concern would be mold forming on the meat. I have an idea to stop this....I think if you packed the meat in lots of salt, mold couldn't form, and before you feed it to your fish, make sure to shake all the salt off, and give it a quick rinse with water.
If you do decide to give this a try, I would very much appreciate if you would come back to this page, and comment about your success or failure. Thanks!
dan21 reteo
dan21 reteo - 7 years ago
James Tetreault can u baked it? As in make it like a pellet? We don't normally use our refrigerator in a long time.. thanks if your gonna reply
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
Thanks James! Very good idea - I use the water method when I freeze fish fillets for eating later on. It does a great job of preventing freezer burn and keeping the fillets tasting great! I might give that a shot at some point on my beefheart and see how it fares. Thanks again for watching, and for the great ideas :)
James Tetreault
James Tetreault - 7 years ago
Yes, long term freezing would affect the thinner packs more (greater surface area). To increase the longevity submerge your packs in water and freeze, this minimizes the effects of freezer burn. I don't make more than 1 month supply at a time. Thanks for the video and good luck.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
James, I have tried that in the past, and you are absolutely right, this is an easy and convenient way to store the beefheart. I used a rolling pin to flatten the mixture in the bags, and get them to an even consistency.
I stopped doing this however, because I now make my beefheart in massive quantities, as I find it a chore to do this every couple of months, so I buy enough heart/fish/liver etc to make enough for 6 months of feedings. I have noticed that the fish seem reluctant to eat the food after about the 4th or 5th month, and I suspect it's because the thinness of the food in the ziplocks allows the food to succumb to freezer burn, and/or loses some of the taste and nutritional value.
I did an experiment and put the food into air-sealed baggies (as in the video) in large, thick chunks, and left that in the freezer for 5 months. I then fed some of this thick meat and some of the thin, ziplock meat, to several tanks of different fish (Angels, Discus, Tetras, Corys, Plecos) and found that in every single case, the fish would eat the thicker meat with gusto, and avoided the thinner meat, leaving it to rot at the bottom of the tank, or picking at it with reluctance, only after the thicker meat was gone.
The thicker meat smelled good - better than the ziplock - which seemed to lose all odor after month 2 or 3 and the color was nicer on the thick stuff too.
I believe either the fish or the liver in the formula must have a fairly short shelf life in the ziplock bags, and my aquarium fish can definitely tell the difference.

So, that being said, although I absolutely agree with you that the ziplock solution is more convenient, and easier to feed, I personally stick with the thick cuts in the air sealed baggies, and use a knife to shave the food down to size for feedings.
If you are only making small batches (probably better for your fish anyhow) then yes, I would say your method is the way to go.
Thanks for watching, and taking the time to comment with your suggestion! It may help other people when they browse through this comment section in the future :)
Joricano
Joricano - 7 years ago
thanks for the video. i just made a beef heart mix last weekend and it was a disaster. I'll be using the "liquefied lettuce" technique this time.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
Any time! :)
Joricano
Joricano - 7 years ago
i think my next batch will be based on your recipe. i won't be using spinach but red lettuce instead. Thanks for the help!
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
Yup, too much spirulina is not a good thing, just a touch will do. Discus are notoriously picky eaters, and if they don't like their food, they would rather starve than eat it - no joke!
Some other things I would like to point out about your recipe that you might not know; I used to add spinach myself, until I found out that it was actually bad for the fish, and has been shown to leach vitamins out of a fish's blood (can't remember the study, I'd have to look it up) but you can substitute the red lettuce instead, which has all the iron, and other benefits, without the downsides of spinach - it is also really great at loosening up your ground meats in the blender without the need to add water.
I also used to add shrimp to my recipe, but you need to be really careful about your source. If they are wild-caught shrimp, and not from an asian country, then yes, they are an excellent addition, but if they are the cheaper, farmed shrimps, avoid them like the plague. These shrimp are fed garbage, and their ponds are pumped full of chemicals and medications to keep them from getting diseases, and to top it all off, the farmers are known to use syringes to inject dirty pond water into the body cavity of the shrimps to increase their weight just before sale. If you boil them, (hopefully) all of the bacteria will be killed off, but if you use them as-is in your beefheart formula, you will make your fish sick for sure!
Same thing with Salmon - use wild-caught only, I can't stress that enough!
Other than that, your recipe sounds good, asthaxin is great, and so is garlic, but also should be added in moderation, so that your food doesn't reek of garlic, as this will turn off some picky eaters as well.
Good luck with your next batch, hopefully it turns out better for you. If you need any advice, I'm happy to help :)
Joricano
Joricano - 7 years ago
well my recipe was somewhat of a hybrid between Joey's recipe and some guy's that posted in a facebook group. Basically beef heart, fish,shrimps,spinach,garlic,gelatin,spirulina and asthaxin. All was good until i added the spirulina. I must've added too much because the while mix turned black..lol. At least the goldfish eats it. but the discus in the display tank and in the breeding tank don't like it
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
Thank-you very much :)
WhoCares2509
WhoCares2509 - 7 years ago
As entertaining as it was watching you de-vein lettuce for ten minutes (;P), I have a couple of comments and a question.
1- Lettuce is virtually devoid of any nutritional value and you'd be slightly better off using spinach, or even better, kale.
2- It seems like it would make more sense to add the vitamins and the gelatin to your mix while it's in the bowl rather than messing around with it after you spread it on the tray.
As for my question, I was wondering why you shock the liver to prevent fouling your water but leave the beef heart completely raw. Would they not both have a negative effect on your water quality?
I've attempted this method before using gelatin and it doesn't hold together very well. I guess I must've messed up my proportions, but I did try to compensate with extra gelatin. I'm curious as to whether agar agar works better. Much more expensive, but definitely something to look into.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
WhoCares2509 I would appreciate the feedback - looking forward to that, and to trying out some of your ideas on my next batch of beefheart - thanks again, cheers,
Paul.
WhoCares2509
WhoCares2509 - 7 years ago
Glad to share some of my ideas in return for the info you shared with us! The aragonite is not technically a nutritional supplement, so it's for sure that I'm going to have to really read up on that and do some pretty extensive testing. I'll let you know once I finally get around to that. ttyl
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
WhoCares2509 Hmmmm....leaving them intact and mixed into the beefheart seems like a great idea actually! I may have to try that idea as well on my next batch - thanks for the great suggestions! I am going to do some research into Aragonite as well. It sounds like it could work - if you do any tests, as you say, on guppies, please let me know what your findings are.
WhoCares2509
WhoCares2509 - 7 years ago
I don't blend the worms and shrimp to a pulp. I just leave them intact so that the fish can pick at them just as we do when we eat fries off the same plate as our burger. :)
I'm a little hesitant to test anything on a live creature, but I may have to try it out on some guppies or something because losing a few fish for the greater good of the entire population would ultimately be a worthy sacrifice.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
"Aragonite huh? ..... lol I'd volunteer, but I value my fish too much :)
There used to be a Discus breeder named Carry Strong out of Detroit, he was famous for testing out various theories on his fish, like leaving them in a shipping box in his backyard for 3 days in February to see if they could survive the ordeal. He had a whole basement of tanks filled with fish though, so he could afford to lose a few. Me, not so much :)
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
I like to feed those separately (bloodworm, shrimp). The way I see it, when I was a kid, I had the bright idea to put a hamburger and fries into a blender so I could make a delicious smoothie.....long story short - it wasn't delicious at all. I always wondered why a burger and fries on their own could taste so good, but blended together, they were unpalatable, and I feel that it is the same way with fish food - the simpler you can make it, the better, and I feel the fish would enjoy good food such as bloodworms and shrimp all by themselves. Not sure if this is sound logic, but that is my thought on the subject :)
WhoCares2509
WhoCares2509 - 7 years ago
One day. :) I really wonder if we could use aragonite as a source of calcium without harming our fish. I think some brave fish somewhere will have to volunteer. ;)
WhoCares2509
WhoCares2509 - 7 years ago
oh yeah, I like to add brine shrimp and blood worms to my mix as well.
WhoCares2509
WhoCares2509 - 7 years ago
In any case, I've been working on this type of formula as well, albeit
not as long as you have, and I think I can offer you a few improvements. :)
Kale is def. an experimental ingredient. I really have no clue about the taste-buds of our fish and it would probably not be wise to anthropomorphize something like that.
If the lettuce is just for water, then it seems that it would be smarter just to add water rather than wasting money on something that you can get for much cheaper as spring water or aged tap water. Again, the vitamins you add are most likely enough and, just as with humans, it's never a good idea to mega-dose on vitamins. I think you demonstrate the redundancy of the lettuce perfectly by the way you slice it with a knife and then twist it to break off the base afterwards (LOL ok, I'm just
messing with you a bit there).
Ok, but as for the improvements to the formula that I promised you -- try baby food! Carrots and all that other good shit. Trust me, if a baby will eat it you can bet that your spoiled little fish will.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
WhoCares2509 I agree 100% the main purpose of the lettice is for water...without actually adding water-as was common practice in the early days. I have seen a few bloxkages myself, never with wild Discus, always with long captive bred lineage fish. Dont know if theres a specifi reason for this, but I was in a university lab in Guelph with a veterinarian proffessor giving his students some real life experience. As for the Kale, I woul immagine that it would be too coarse and without enough liquid content to serve its purpose, also the bitterness might make it distasteful to the fish, but I have never tried it, so maybe Im way off on that? If you ever try it, please drop me a line and let me know what your observations are as to how your dish respons to it, Id be very interested in hearing about it!
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
youtube cut my reply short...here is the rest.......

All that being said, I do not recommend feeding a diet of strictly beefheart, or strictly anything for that matter. I always include a variety of foods, and I wont feed the beefheart for a day or two out of each week. I suppliment with frozen Hijari bloodworms, freezedried blackworms (live BW if Im trying to induce spawning in a stubborn pair) and live whiteworms, as well as live red wigglers (tiny sized, or cut into peices with a razor blade) as well as occassionalky feeding Tetra color bits and even fresh flake food from time to time (althougj flake is usually ignored by my fish). I will also keep a few bristle nosed Plecos in my non-breeding tanks to clean up any tiny particles of food which have fallen to the bottom and are too small for the Discus to care about....this really helps to keep watet quality good.
I am now feeding my beefheart formula to feed my breeder and grow-out Angels, African Cichlids, Zebra and L201 Plecos, Tetras as well as other fish over the years- all with positive breeding results, but always with varried diets. Well, its taken me so long to tap this out on my phone that I see you already replied to part 1 LOL....
WhoCares2509
WhoCares2509 - 7 years ago
You bring up some good points. I do have to dispute the potential for blockage, however. If you are blending the lettuce, there is very, very little chance that it could cause a blockage, especially since you are using peas in your mixture which act as a sort of laxative for fish. I feed spinach to my plecos regularly and have never seen any negative effects. I fail to understand how a slightly different nutrient balance could destroy the skeleton of a fish. Kale may be more expensive, but I'd be interested in hearing about any experiments you might do in the future should you try it. Take a look at the nutritional values and I'm sure you'll agree that it's far superior to lettuce. Lettuce is next to useless, especially considering that you add vitamins to your mix. Even with the potential deterioration, the lettuce is the equivalent of drinking tap water to get calcium.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
WhoCares2509 Again, you are correct that there is little difference between green and red lettuce ( slightlu different vitamin/mineral composition). The red is known to be softer of the 2, and that is the reason for removing the veins. Discus cannot properly digest vegatble matter, and any larger peices of vein coukd potentially cause a blockage in their intestines - and I have done autopsies on friends' Discus which pointed to this as being the djrect or indirect cause of death. Lettuce is a rich source of vitamins A and K (K is used to make a protein which moves Calcium into the bones) K is important when keeping your fish in very soft and acidic water for that reason. Spinach has been found in tests to leach Calcium out of bones and prevent further absorbtion. Red lettuce also contains caretenoids beta-carotene as well as micro amounts of other vital minerals. Since we are using vitamin additives in the mix, these minute amounts are negligable, but I always like to assume that my vitami additive is never quite as spectacular as the manufacturer suggests - even in the best of conditions, certain vitamins will deteriorate rapidly, and depending on the age of the bottle, the original content (not regulated), and the conditions it was stored in, there may be large gaps between what the label claims, and what is actually in the bottle.
I have always used gelotine in my mixtures. The secret to a good solud gel being formed is to first dissolve in bouling wzter and then add the cold...in exact amounts as per the label Wnen I first started making this beefheart mixture in the early 90s, I managed to mess up a few batches by not doing the gelatine correctly. This lead to messes in the tanks and a huge strain on the filtratiom systems, as well as me - more water changes were definately needed :) I know some people dont ise any binding agent, and personally I shudder at the thought. Agar-agar can also be used, and I know several people who swear by it, but having been given a sample of their food to try, I didnt see any difference in clouding of the water, but I did notice that my fish prefered my formula to theirs (perhaps because of being conditioned to eat mine). I have also seen a youtube video of Matk Weisse using only powders and algaes to form his food, but it looked like A LOT of effort and time. My fish grow big and strong and most importantly breed frequently and easily, so the way I see it, they must be getting everything they need out of the food already, so whybother with the additional work?
WhoCares2509
WhoCares2509 - 7 years ago
Thank you for your quick response. The difference between the two types of lettuce is negligible. There is really no point in removing the vein aside from removing water content, but in reality the only purpose of adding the lettuce is water. It's virtually useless nutritionally, including fiber content.
Anyway, don't feel stupid -- this is a learning process and we are all in the same boat. It would help us all to refine our methods. If we consider nutrition, effort and cost, it's sure that we can cut some corners. Consider baby food. The real key as far as I'm concerned is holding everything together, which gelatin is not up to the task when it comes down to it. The best gel food I've tried was this "Rapashy food", which used algae as a binding agent as far as I can tell.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 7 years ago
I'm off to work in minutes, but I'll try to answer your questions as well as I can. The lettuce is used as a source of iron (red lettuce, not green) and is absorbed by the fish quite readily, as well as serving to "liquify" the beefheart in the blender so that it can be ground into finer particles (avoiding intestinal blockage in fish which are far-removed from their wild counterparts, so sometimes try to eat what they can't digest). In the past it was standard practice to use spinach instead (never heard of using Kale) but it was found that it removed calcium from the blood of the fish, and had very little benefit in terms of iron absorption, so that is the reason for using the red lettuce instead of anything else.....yes it is tedious to de-vein, and my apologies for the amount of time this video dedicated to that process - it was one of my first, and I was still learning to edit videos :)
Truth be told, I now believe it would be alright to remove the large center vein, and the larger side veins, but the smaller tributary veins should be okay to leave in, as long as your blender does a good job of breaking them down - you could also pass the blended matter through a sieve to remove any potentially larger pieces if you felt the need.

As for your second question, I have always made my beefheart this way, until I aired this video. I had a professional chef comment on my technique, and now I feel a bit stupid about having done it this way. Yes, you are absolutely correct, that is is much easier to add EVERYTHING to the bowl, and then spread it out over the containers with parchment paper :P That is my current method, and I use the biggest soup pot I can find (preferably ceramic, not metal) and mix everything with a large wooden spoon, then dump it into portions over the shallow pots. Yes, agar-agar will work, and is more expensive, but it will work as well as the gelatin. You need to add enough gelatin to make the mixture liquidy, so that it will not cloud the water. It also helps to throw in the beefheart before it has had a chance to fully thaw, as that gets messy in the tank, once the fish start tearing it apart.

I scald the liver because it is an essential part of the nutrient mixture of this food, but if added raw, is an absolute mess, and instantly fouls the water. With a quick scalding, the protein sticks together quite well, and still retains most of the nutritional value. The beefheart on the other hand, is process into very fine "burger" meat, and even if dropped directly into the tank, will not foul it badly, so that is why I do it that way.

Sorry about the short reply, but I really do have to get to work. If I haven't answered everything to your satisfaction, please feel free to ask more, as often as you like, thanks for checking out the video, and I hope you and your fish enjoy the end product! :)

10. comment for Making my Time-tested and Proven Beefheart Discus Food Recipe (Good for Most Carnivorous Fish)

q Lancaster
q Lancaster - 8 years ago
will be making some of this on the weeked.. just patiently awaiting the arrival of my tan discus
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Your Discus should love this food, mine didn't need any convincing - they ate it the next day after shipping.
What strain are you getting from Mr. Tan?
Spencer Newberry
Spencer Newberry - 8 years ago
Could I feed this to my oscars daily
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Spencer Newberry Absolutely. As with any fish though, it's not a good idea to feed any one food exclusively. Your fish will grow tired of it - same as if you only ate steaks for breakfast lunch and dinner every single day - eventually you would grow sick of it. So the beefheart is great as a staple food - you can definitely feed it to your Oscars every day, but also throw in some other types of food each day as a treat - pellets or live crickets, or live mealworms, Oscars LOVE earthworms and those Red Wiggler worms that are used for composting! And every once in a while treat them with some feeder goldfish or pieces of shrimp (if you're having shrimp for dinner, throw the Oscars a chunk of raw shrimp).
Also, if you're feeding beefheart daily, always remember to keep up with tank maintenance, and clean the gravel (if you have gravel bottom) and do a partial water change once a week to keep things sanitary in your tank, and your fish will thank you for it :)
Mike Brinson
Mike Brinson - 8 years ago
Thanks for the video.  I made this last night, turned out great.  My discus love it.
Logan Neff
Logan Neff - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   Been meaning to post an update, been a bit busy.  Everything is going great.  My tank is looking good and the discus are growing.  I was afraid at first that the two red scribletts had stunted their growth with the sickness and being moved.  It took a little bit, but they have both increased in size and are getting some neat blue colors against a reddish body.  Look really cool.  My two blue discus have really taken off, they are both over 5 inches and one has gotten a reddish color throughout the top fin. I still have about two full bags of the beefheart mixture from my first batch, that stuff has really paid for itself.  After I post this, I will make another YouTube video showing the progress.  I have been thinking about adding 3-4 more discus but right now we are saving up for a pool and deck, so those plans will be on hold a bit.  I have been looking at Tony Tans website, he has some really nice fish.  Once again, thanks for all the help.  I will name the video on YouTube Discus Tiffanie 2.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson Wow, so much drama in your tanks! :) Sorry to hear about the red checkerboard and the Cardinals/hatchets. I am currently setting up a tank with Cardinals only to try breeding them for a future video. One thing I can tell you about Cardinals and probably Hatchets too is that they are VERY sensitve to water parameter changes.
If you throw them into a tank too fast, with different pH or water temps, they will slowly die off from the shock. The way to introduce them, is to put them into a small container with the water they came in, then take some airline tubing, put a cloths clamp or a knot into the tubing, put one end into your tank, and SLOWLY drip the tank water into the container of Cardinals until it is full. Once it is full, dump out half of the water from their container, and continue dripping tank water in. Once it is full again, dump half and repeat. This may take several hours or more to do (the longer the better), but that way the Cardinals will survive the stress of changing water parameters - any other way and they usually die, and this may be true for the Hatchets as well. Also, Cardinals can grow to 2 inches or more, and at that size, Discus won't bother them, as well, when they are in a school, Discus will see the school as one big fish, and won't bother them either. But if they ever snack on one, and find out that they like the taste - they will all be eaten shortly, so it's kind of a gamble....your call.
Good to hear about the blues' reduced aggression as well! You are right about them being tricked into thinking that they are in a new environment, but also the cleaner water might have something to do with it as well? If you ever want to buy more red Discus, stay away from places like LiveAquaria - they are a business interested in one thing only, and that's $$$. Find a breeder of Discus only, and buy from them. Just google "Discus breeders in USA" or check out the ads or post a 'wanted' ad on SimplyDiscus - I know there are still home breeders on there who sell their fry, and are willing to ship. One guy has a stunning pair of red Discus, and his fry always sell out.
Anyhow, good to hear that everything is going well. Also good to hear that your Cardinals died in the QT tank rather than the main tank. Keep up the good work, and keep up the updates :)
Logan Neff
Logan Neff - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish
All the cardinal tetras and all but 2 of the silver hatchet fish I got ended up dying in qt. Got them from LiveAquaria so I got my money back minus the shipping. I found a LFS that is a little bit of a drive but I am going to check with them and see if they have silver hachets. I think I am going to stay away from the Cardinal tetras, I think they will just end up snacks for my blue discus. Also the red checkerboard ended up dying. he got stuck in the driftwood while I was at work and when I found him he was dead, must have suffocated. I can't keep the red ones alive for the life of me. Everything else is going well the red scribblets eat like pigs, love the beef heart mixture. The tank change had another postive effect, it quelled the aggression of the other two blues, I think putting them in QT for a week and then re introducing them to the new setup tricked them into thinking it was a new environment.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson You are very welcome, I'm glad I could help, but remember, YOU did all the work ;D
I'm still looking forward to a video with the Hatchets and Tetras in there - should be a stunning tank! PS love that potted plant!
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish THANKs my friend, I couldn't have done it without your help,  thank you so much.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson Found it! That tank looks AWESOME. The Discus look happy and healthy! Very very nice!
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
Search Discus Tiffanie on youtube, I will also post on SimplyDiscus my thread
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson I'm not seeing the liink on my end for some reason?
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
I posted the link in the comment section in our YouTube conversation.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson If your Tetras are too small, the Discus will likely try to eat them, and once they discover how tasty they are, and how much fun it is to hunt them down.....you'll never be able to put Tetras in there again ;) You're right about putting more of them in. That way, they will stay in a fairly tight school, and the Discus will see the school as another larger fish, and will not try to eat them. Once they get bigger, getting eaten will not be an issue.
Your red checkerboard is the smallest of your Discus? If so, he is just at the bottom of the pecking order. All Cichlids establish a pecking order in any tank, and this is perfectly normal. As long as he is eating regularly, there is nothing to worry about.
You say there's a video somewhere??? I looked on your SimplyDiscus post, but didn't see it - where did you post it to? I'd love to check it out!
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish  I got my silver hachets and cardinal tetras today as well.  They are in the qt tank.  Looking at the tetras, I think I am going to have to up the number that I have, they are so small.  I have 6 right now, going to bump up to 15-20.  The hachets are awesome they dart around the tank mostly at the top.  Cant wait to get them in the main tank.  The red checkerboard has gone back in hiding, I have just decided that is his personality.  Hope you like the video, I will upload another once I get the schooling fish out of qt.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson I had food poisoning myself last week, so I can sympathize. Good to hear that you are now fully bare bottom (that somehow didn't sound right LOL) You will now be able to fully enjoy healthy Discus, which will undoubtedly show some really nice colors in the weeks ahead.
Absolutely I can add you to the list of people who want babies from this pair. I have been resting them in the 75 gallon, and will be putting them back into the breeder tank in a few weeks time. I have to ramp up my Whiteworm culture a bit before I put them in, as I use them heavily to condition the pair. As any Discus breeder can tell you - just because they bred once doesn't guarantee they'll do it again, so I am a bit nervous, but keeping my fingers crossed that they have had a long enough vacation, and are now ready to get down to business ;)
Can't wait for photo/video of your new BB tank! I guess you could post pictures on Simplydiscus....that site is still good for that at least :P
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   Adding a picture or maybe even a video will be no problem at all.  I am about two days behind, got food poisoning.  I got all the gravel out today and am bare bottom.  It looks better than I thought and very clear as well.  I got a false ammonia spike on my first testing of the main tank, I waited about an hour retested twice and read 0.  The other think I wanted to ask is can I be added to your contact list once you start breeding that pair in the video in May.  There were one of the main reason I chose to go with your recipe.  I haven't decided on my numbers of hachets and tetras but wanted to add two more discus, I couldn't think of a better place to get them.  Thanks again, and photo/video should be coming in about a month or so.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson Excellent work!!!! You are out of the tunnel, not just seeing the light! As far as transferring the fish goes, as long as you use water of the same temperature and pH, this should not stress the fish too much. Make sure when you put them in a bucket, to cover the top with something heavy (cardboard with a stone on top), many people don't realize that Discus can jump pretty high, and jumping out of a bucket isn't hard for them to do.
When you have all your Discus back in the main tank, and you have your QT tank back, don't forget to use it for your Tetras and Hatchets for a few weeks before adding them to your main tank, since they may be carrying ich or any number of pests just like any other fish. This will also give you a chance to slowly raise their tank temperatures to match your Discus tank, so they will be ready to be put straight in after quarantine without any stress on them.
Sounds like you have everything back under control, congratulations, and I am happy that I could help you - I'm also very surprised that nobody on simplydiscus even bothered to reply to your problem. In any case, you are on your way to being successful with Discus, make sure to let me know how it went, when you finally add all the fish to the main tank, and maybe a picture after you add the Tetras and Hatchets? ;)
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   All three fish are doing great, eating, swimming.  Tomorrow is the last dose of Prazipole in the hospital tank.  I have also been medicating the two blues in the main tank by dipping their food in Prazi once a day.  Friday is the big move, I figure its going to take me awhile but I have ordered an extra air pump and stone to keep in the blues bucket while I am taking out the substrate.  I am going to try and create as little stress as possible but am worried with the multiple transfers.  I also plan on giving a 3 day break on the Prazi with the blues once they transfer to the hospital tank with frequent water changes.  Dose them for one week and return them to the main tank.  I then plan on converting the hospital tank in a QT tank and start looking into the tetras and hachets.  I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel,  thanks again for all your help.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Yes, you are correct in assuming that the HOB filters will contribute to poor water quality for Discus, just like the canister types, unless they are cleaned at least weekly.  
For my 75 Gallon bare bottom with Discus (8 adult fish) I have one large sponge filter (approx 5" diameter) powered by an airstone, as well as one of those long blue airstones on the side of the tank for extra aeration - both powered by the same air pump.
Yes, you could also attach the sponge filter's top tube to the bottom (intake) of your HOB filter, and use that to power the sponge filter.  This is actually a pretty good way to do it, as your sponge will act as a pre-filter, and will not allow food particles or detritus to enter the HOB, and once you clean out that HOB's media, the beneficial bacteria in it will polish your water nicely, while the outflow will provide aeration too.  Since you have two HOB filters, you can take one apart and clean the media thoroughly, then attach the sponge to the bottom, and keep the second HOB running along side this system for a week or so, until the bacteria can establish themselves, then remove the dirty HOB filter, and you're in business!  You can probably sell the second HOB filter, and get the money back for the price you paid for some of the other stuff.
With the sponge filters, depending on how heavily you feed your fish, how big they are, and how many fish you have, all you have to do is take it out once a week, pull off the sponge, and squeeze it 3 or 4 times in a bucket of clean tank water, to squeeze out some of the brown sediment within, and it's good to go back in the tank.  You might be able to get away with doing this every 2 or even 3 weeks.  The more important factor is regular water changes, and siphoning the bottom daily.  Another tip to keep your water sparkling clean is to use a sponge (yellow/green dishwashing ones are fine - use the yellow sponge side) to wipe down all the walls and bottom of your tank once a week after siphoning the bottom.  Then wait about 15 minutes to 1/2 hour, and you will see some fine sediment on the bottom from the wiped down sides.  Siphon that off, then re-fill the tank with aged water, and your fish will love you for it.  Keep up this routine, and you'll rarely if ever have sick fish again.  Keep the updates/questions coming!
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   As of right now I have two HOB filters Emperor 400s.  I hardly ever change or wash my filters, used to keeping other types of fish and was also worried about killing my biological filter.  This with the substrate is probably the main culprits in the 4 fish illness I have.  I was thinking switching over to a sponge filter, they sound easier/cheaper to maintain (the filters for the emperor aren't cheap).  My plan is to add one sponge filter and take one of the emperor out.  I want to keep one while the sponge filter is building up a biological filter.  After a few weeks I think I will take the other HOB filter off as well.  I have seen were people have taken sponges and covered the intake to keep food particles from entering the filter.  I may do this as well.  I have just starting researching sponge filters but my understanding is it needs a pump just like the airstone?  Will one sponge filter be sufficient or should I do two?
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Your plan is absolutely spot on!!!  You're getting the hang of this Discus keeping thing! :)   
Because I'm suspecting that your root cause of the problem was simply bad water quality caused by food caught in the gravel, this means that you don't have to go crazy disinfecting your tank.  
This is up to you, if you feel more comfortable doing a bleach scrub, and full water replacement, then by all means go for it, but I would think you would be just fine by removing all the gravel, and using a sponge to wipe down all the sides and bottom of the tank, as well as the heater, and air lines.  Let the water settle for half an hour or so, then siphon all the debris from the bottom, and as much of the water as you feel comfortable with (as much as you have available to replace it with) then just wait for it to come back to the proper temperature, and you can re-introduce your Discus to the main tank.  
As far as the filter is concerned - I don't think I ever asked you what you were using for a filter?  If it's a sponge filter, then you can just put it into a bucket of clean water, and squeeze it several times until it stops 'bleeding' dirty water out of it, and you can put it back in the tank, and it should have most of the good bacteria still intact.
If you have an external canister type filter, then this might also be a cause to your water troubles - similar to having gravel on the bottom, a canister will trap waste particles in its media, which will slowly be consumed by the beneficial bacteria, but because the aquarium water is running through it all the time, if enough junk gets in there, it will be a perpetual cause of bad water in your Discus tank, no matter how many water changes you do.  If you have one of these filters, you will need to take the media out, and rinse the media inside of a bucket full of aquarium water.  Just toss the media inside, and swirl around, then dump the dirty water, and refill with clean - repeat until the water stays relatively clear after the rinse, then you can put the media back in, and the beneficial bacteria should still be okay.

If you're using a canister type filter, you cannot rely on it to keep your water clean.  Think of it as a fine polisher of the water - it can take out fine particles suspended in the water column and keep the water sparkling clean - as long as you maintain a regular regime of religious water changes, where you siphon all the junk off the bottom.  You will see that this will become very easy to do once you get rid of the gravel.  With a bare bottom tank, a sponge filter will be all you will really need, and with a canister, it would be a good idea to rinse the media every other month or so to avoid any trouble.
Also, great thinking about putting a background on the bottom of the tank!  You can pick up some craft paper from the dollar store or any craft store which you can cut to size, and tape to the bottom of your tank, and maybe the back and side(s) too if you like.  You can also paint the outside of the glass any color you like (this will be more work to remove in the future).  Either way, Discus will do much much better with the bottom covered, and will be much more uneasy without any bottom covering, so great thinking on that issue!!   Also, keep in mind that the color you choose will affect the color of your fish.  A black background/bottom will cause your fish to go very dark.  A white background/bottom will do the opposite - making them seem pale and washed out.  I would suggest a light green or blue or sand colored background (or one of those planted photograph type backgrounds from the pet store) to keep their colors nice, and show your red fish at their best against a contrasting background.
Anyhow, it looks like you are doing an excellent job of adapting to your fishes needs, and providing them with a healthy environment.   Most people (and I've read the forums for decades) will never get to the point you are at right now, so congratulations, and keep up the great work!!!  Also, keep the updates coming, good or bad, I love to hear how it is going for you and your fish!  :) :) :)
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   Tomorrow I start the second round of prazi.  The fish seem to be doing really well, I have stopped obsessing over their eating. I have noticed that the two red scribletts are eating the most.   I am starting to plan ahead and after this next round of prazi is done I am thinking about moving the three from hospital tank into 75 gallon.  I figured that would be around next weekend.  I will also move the two blues from 75 gallon into hospital tank and dose them with two weeks of prazi as well.  I have found new homes for the 2 rainbow fish and the 3 picus, will get rid of them tomorrow.  Before the transition from hospital tank I plan on removing all the gravel and finding some kind of cover/background for bottom of tank.  You had mentioned earlier of a scrub down of the main tank.  My main worry is wiping out my biological filter.  My plan while removing all the gravel is keeping the 3 fish in hospital tank and keeping the two blues in a five gallon bucket with a small heater and air stone.   I appreciate all your help, and I'm seeing results from following your advice.  Let me know what you think about my plan.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson it could just be a reaction to the medication, or to the salt (if you are still adding any, maybe give it a rest for at least a few days now). Sometimes dull colored gills are an indication that the fish has a liver issue - which may be because it uses the liver to filter out all the meds in its body. So now that it's rest time, you can reduce the temperature by 1 degree or so, to give them some relief, and increase the oxygen in the water by a little bit. Sometimes, that small change might trigger them to eat a little bit, but don't expect them to start eating like little pigs until they are a lot further down the path of recovery.
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish  The gills are a dull pink.  I think increasing aeration is a good idea.  Right now I have a single airstone, think I will look for a long one.  Tonight is the last night that I have to replace the prazi with water changes.  I will start the second round on Friday.  I think it was more of a let down that the red stopped eating again, I could have been imaging the gill problem, today it doesn't seem as bad.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson are the gills bright red or dull pink? You may need to increase aeration. Sometimes when Discus get sick, and their immune system is supressed, they end up picking up gill flukes. The increased temperatures of the hospital tank speed up the flukes' life cycle, so they can get out of control pretty quickly. Discus can live with these pests, so I'd concentrate on finishing the entire course of treatment with the Prazi and then after a rest period we can assess if you have another health issue. With the Prazi treatment, keep an eye on your fishes anus to see if there are any dead tape worms hanging out, or if you notice any thin white worms on the bottom of the tank. This could be a reason the fish has temporarily stopped eating, but dont let this worry you too much, this finicky appettite is quasi normal for some fish undergoing medication.
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   A little worried about the red checkerboard.  He hasn't ate today, and his gills look funny.  He is breathing out of both sides but they are hyperextended (gills), best way I know how to explain it.  Have been keeping up with water changes, nothing has really changed.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Don't want to say it......but...... TOLD YA SO!   :)  Awesome!

  It will only be a short time now, and all of them will be fine again. Keep up the great work!!
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish  Red Checkerboard ate some food today!!!!!!!!!!!
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
If your tank is covered, the Hatchets will be fine with the Discus.  A large school of Cardinals is an amazing sight alongside of the Discus, and the Silver Hatchets on the top would make for a spectacular display!

As for the fish in the hospital tank, there is no hard rule as to how long it will take them to come around.  It may take two or three weeks or tomorrow they could all suddenly be eating again.  The one good thing you have going for you is that at least one of them is eating.  Discus will tend to do what they see other Discus doing.  If one of them gets scared and starts dashing around the tank, the rest will do the same, if one or two decide to hang out in one corner of the tank, the rest will be there shortly.  So if one of them is eating, the others will see this, and when they start to feel better, they will also start to eat.  If you had any live food, this would be a good way to entice them to start eating.  If you could get your hands on a white worm culture, this is an excellent food for Discus, which cannot introduce any harmful pathogens, is nutritious, and most Discus cannot resist them.   
But if you keep doing what you are doing now, they should come around shortly, so just have patience.  This is not easy to do, because you want the best for your fish, and you know they have to eat to stay healthy, but just keep the water quality up, and if the temperature is nice and comfy for the fish, they will get better.  A little pinch of sea salt goes a long way to bringing them around too.  Keep the updates coming....
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish  No real changes, 1 red Scriblett eating other two are hanging in there.  I remember you said it may take longer than a week for them to perk up.  Is there an average time frame to start looking for the other two to start eating?  Still not seeing any poo either, but again not much eating going on.  Did a full dose of Prazipro tonight along with a larger water change tonight. I was thinking about getting a school of cardinal tetras and a school of silver hachets.  Both seem to be good with discus although I hear the hachets require pristine water conditions as well and are jumpers but my tank is covered.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Good plan - that way you can still see the blue lobster and the picus whenever you are visiting.  Now that you're medicating, I just thought of another reason not to have these two in the tank with the Discus....they are usually more sensitive to meds than most fish, including Discus.  So if a problem occurred in your main tank, you would have to pull them out to medicate your Discus.   So it's for the best that you're rehousing these guys.  In the long run, you'll be happy you did it.  There are other fish you can keep with Discus fairly successfully.  Bristle Nosed Plecos, German Rams, or if you liked the tetras, you can get a larger school of Cardinal Tetras or Rummy Nosed Tetras - both can stand the warmer waters that Discus like, and are peaceful enough to be housed with Discus.  Just some thoughts for you. 
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish The dosing for the Prazipro is 5ml per 20 gallons.  I am changing about 6 gallons a pop so I need to re dose 1.5 ml per water change.  Directions say re dose as necessary but not more than once every 3 days so on Friday I will re dose the full 5mls.    Next Tuesday I will take a break from dosing with 3-4 days of fresh water.  Then I will start the second weeks dosing Saturday March 12th and follow same routine, replacing as I change water.  I am with you on getting more tanks, but at this time I just don't have the space. I do have an unfinished basement but I never go down there so it would defeat the purpose.  The picus I am going to give to my uncle, he loves catfish.  I would like to keep the 20 gallon open for a QT/hospital tank just in case.  My brother keeps fish as well, I may see if he wants to keep the blue lobster.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson You're going to be a very successful Discus keeper, I can already tell :) Your fish will thank you for going bare bottom - the tank that is ;) You will see their health and color improve, I can pretty much guarantee that!

As for your questions, you are probably better off leaving the 2 blues in the tank they are in right now, until the rest of your fish get back to health in the hospital tank, then when you put them back into the main tank, you can take the 2 blues out and repeat the medication process on them. Even though they are not showing any signs, they probably carry whatever pathogen caused your problems, and they will re-infect your healthy fish all over again if you don't do this. You will also need to disinfect your main tank before reintroducing your healthy fish, for the same reasons - we'll talk about that as the time gets nearer.
You are right to assume that the concentration of Prazipro will decrease with the water changes. You will have to add the same dosage of Prazi to your replacement water to compensate. Offhand I don't know the dosage, but if (for example) it was 1ml per Gallon and you just replaced 10 gallons, you'd have to add back 10ml of the Prazi.
Next question, yes it would be okay to add a few drops to the food even though you dosed today, Prazi is very forgiving, and you can have a bit more concentration in the fish's body without any harm.
Remember, that you will need to do two rounds of 5-7 days with this med. So after a week, stop medicating, give the fish fresh water for 3 or 4 days (whatever the instructions say) and then repeat the medication for another 5-7 days. This is because some parasites are resistant to the Prazi when they are in eggs/cysts - for example tapeworms - so the 3 days is to allow any eggs to hatch out, and then you hit them again with the Prazi, and everything should be erradicated!

As for the blue lobster, when everything is said and done with relocating and medicating your fish, maybe you could house him in your hospital tank? With a bare bottomed main tank, and regular water changes, the chances are you won't need it again. But lobsters/crayfish are known to harass fish at night, and can sometimes kill them, and really don't belong with Discus, as they are slow moving and easily startled/stressed......maybe it's time to look into getting some more tanks? ;)
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish  After your advice and doing further research, I am going to go bare bottom.  I will keep my driftwood and pot a few plants that I want to keep.  I need to start looking to rehome the other fish, I really like the blue lobster but I don't see anyway I can keep him.  I like keeping discus more.  Right now that will but me at 5 fish in the 75 gallon, eventually I think I want to add 3 more discus.  This is going to be farther down the road and I a staying focused on getting the ones I have in the best possible condition first.  On the Prazipro, it says one dose last 5-7 days but does that change if I am changing the water as much as I am now?  Also would it be ok if I dropped a couple drops into tomorrows food even if I dosed today? Also, as of now the two blues I bought from liveaquaria are still in main tank, should I move them over to the 20 gallon to dose them even though they are not showing any symptoms.  I am worried about it being a little to crowded in there with 5 discus.  Also those two have been the most aggressive out of the bunch and I don't want to put any extra stress on the 3 others.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
That's fantastic news!  If they start eating - even just a little, you can put a drop of the Prazipro right on the food, and give it a minute to absorb, then use it along with medicating the water. That way they will get it right into their guts, where it will do most good - but in the water, prazi works great too.   Prazipro is a very safe med to use - as long as you're not combining it with any other medication.  
Aging the water in the garage has another problem - it's probably very far from your fish tank?  This will make it inconvenient in the long run, and you will start to skimp on water changes maybe?  If you can only keep it in the garage, just insulate the ouside of the can with some styrofoam or pink wall insulation foam, or even wrap it in a blanket, and stand it on something insulated, like wood or styrofoam.

The nice thing about aging  your water is that you will not need to add the water conditioner any more.  Don't forget to give the garbage can a good scrub down and rinse it thoroughly to remove any possible contaminants which may have been added when the garbage can was made or in the store it came from - cleaning agents, waxes, etc.

It sounds like your fish will soon all be better in this hospital tank - have you decided on what you are going to do with the 75 gallon tank yet?
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish Just an update, one of the red scribblets has started to eat.  My wife probably thought I was crazy, but I almost jumped through the roof.  Also, the prazipro came a day early, so I am about to do a water change and I will dose according to instructions.  I am little worried about aging my water in the garage, its non insulated and about 35 degrees tonight, I may try to find a better place to age it.  Thanks again, I will keep up with my current schedule.  All the fish seem to be more active even the red checkerboard.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Awesome!  You are doing everything right!
The fact that the Red Scribblets are playful is a very good sign.  The color loss of the Checkerboard is probably due to the fact that he hasn't eaten in so long (red color is enhanced with the food) and also, the white poo can be a sign of intestinal parasites, which the Prazipro may clear up.  You can try giving them a tiny piece of beefheart mixture just before you are going to do a waterchange.  Give them about 5 minutes to eat it, if they don't touch it, or they peck at it, and make a mess, but don't eat it, that's fine, just siphon it out and do the 30% water change, and no harm done.  Once you do the Prazipro treatment, their appetite may just return on its own.  If they do eat it, carefully observe which fish are eating, and which are not, that will give you further information as to their individual health.
Discus are biologically programmed to not eat much for months at a time.  In the Amazon, they are often stranded in small pools for months without food during the dry season, then when the rainy season returns, they will bounce back on their own.  The only exception is, if they are juveniles, then they should have something to peck at from time to time.
Keep up the good work, and keep me posted.
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish I am changing the water 3 times a day about 30% a pop.  Since I am not aging my water yet, I am using Aqueon Water conditioner 10 ml.  I am adding 1 tsp of sea salt a day.  There is no feces and since I haven't seen then eat for about 2-3 weeks that doesn't really shock me.    The two red scriblett are very active and are playing in the bubles the air stone is creating.  The red checkerboard is very lethargic and sometime swims vertically,  he is breathing normally through both gills.  He is also hanging out in the top left corner of the tank.  I have not feed them anything except the first day I put them in the hospital tank (before I started talking to you).  The red checker board is the one where I saw the white poo about 2 1/2 weeks ago, since then nothing.  Also like the other red, he seems to be getting pale.  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1261870800493931&set=a.539059902775028.138157.100000130702948&type=3&theater.  I also ordered Prazipro, it should get her by Wednesday.  My wife is picking up a 32 gallon trash can to age the water, I will cancel the 100 watt heaters and see if she can pick up a 150 while she is out.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Sorry to hear about the fire red.  Let's focus on the remaining fish....what do you mean the checkerboard is acting the same as the fire red before it died?  What symptoms are you seeing?  Is there laboured breathing, is the fish using one gill only, or both?  How about the feces if any?  Tell me anything you can, think of that seems strange, and it might be a clue.   
You are feeding nothing right now, and doing about 50% water changes is that right?  Still adding salt?  What is the current temperature of that tank?

Also, about your heater, you will be hard pressed to find a 100 watt heater that goes that high - 100 watts just isn't powerful enough to put out that kind of heat.  For Discus, you usually have to go with more wattage than the heater manufacturer calls for.  So if you have a 20 gallon tank, don't buy a heater rated for a 20 gallon tank, buy one which is rated for a 30 or 40 gallon tank, and up the watts rating - so try a 150 watt.  Most Discus keepers will agree with you, that it is difficult to find heaters which go high enough for our fish - especially when they get sick and we have to raise the temps to the 90's
.  I have had moderate success with the Ebo Jager brand of heaters (meaning that they will work, if you buy one that is functional, but their company's quality control is less than stellar, and 1 of 3 heaters will have some sort of problem)
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish  The fire red died today, he was in the worse shape and I didn't really think he would make it.  The other three are hanging in there.   The two red scribletts are doing the best, the red checkboard is acting like the fire red before it lost its color.  I went out and got an air stone, and I have another heater coming so I can age my water.  I have an extra trash that we have never used that I think I will use for the aging process in my garage.  The problem I am having at my local stores is finding a 100 watt heater that goes past 88 degrees.   I have ordered two of these from amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0090I7RA4?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_1&smid=A3O88P8V9WW2SXa little more pricey but doesn't max out a 88 degrees.  I went back through and reread your posts and missed the one about my stocking in the 75 gallon.  Sounds like if I want to be serious about keeping discus then I need to make some major changes.  Thanks again, will keep you updated.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Michael Brinson We've all been there before when starting out with Discus. Looking back, I was where you are now, about 20 years ago, when there was a lot less knowledge about these beautiful fish, and it was a very frustrating time because even if you did get advice from someone, it would often be the wrong advice. It's a kind of a right of passage to have to wake up to the sight of your Discus lying on the bottom of the tank gasping for air, or discolored and floating on top, or darkened with fins clamped hiding in the corner of the tank....
I shudder to think how many times a heater has stuck on, and cooked my fish, or somehow the best fish in the tank found a way to jump out overnight, and I found it in the morning dried up on the floor, or some sudden unknown illness starts killing fish after fish or the power goes off for the day, and there's nothing you can do but watch and hope for the best.....and then there's breeding - which is a whole new ball game, full of it's own unique challenges!

It's all part of the process of learning about these fish, and how to be a better fishkeeper for them. So don't feel too bad about it, just learn from it, and make the changes you think you need to make. Hopefully we can salvage your fish, and get you on the road to success.
I'm by no means an expert in fish disease or illness - my strategy is to keep them healthy, so that they never get sick (it's much easier that way). However, I do have a few tips and tricks, and I know a thing or two about healing them, so I will try to help as much as I can. Keep me updated about how your fish are responding!
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish Man, you do not know how much of a help you have been to me.  I have been reading forum after forum about people with similar problems but never finding the same answer. I have been practically begging for help with no luck.  You didn't come off at rude at all, I just didn't want you to think I was blaming the beefheart mixture.  Thanks again and I will keep you updated!!
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Insulted me?  Not at all!!!  Sorry if I gave you that impression - I have been working long hours, and am getting over the flu, so between taking care of my aquariums, the dog and getting ready to go to work again (on a Sunday at midnight lol), I may have been typing too fast, and come off as rude?  My apologies, that was not my intent, I am really just trying to help you.  I provided a bunch of links to threads talking about BB tanks just to prove my point, and show that it's not just me saying so about the gravel bottom.
I'm sorry about SimplyDiscus - ten years ago, it was THE place to go to for Discus hobbyists, but lately, fewer and fewer people seem to reach out on the site, because it seems that everything has already been said.   If you go to their search function, you can type in almost any question you may have, and there will be multiple answers in the archives for you.  It can be a steep learning curve for beginners learning to care for Discus, and this site used to be the holy grail for those looking for information, but if you go through the archives you can still learn A LOT.

If you can't get another tank, and you don't want to do a bare bottom tank, then consider using a very fine sand rather than gravel, so that the food and detritus cannot get lost in between the particles.   
There are many options for a bare bottomed tank too - you can paint the bottom, or cut a peice of colored paper to fit the bottom to make it look nice.  You can put in driftwood with plants such as Anubias or Java Ferns attached to it, you can even put in a few flower pots with potted aquarium plants right into the tank.
If you do a BB tank, you will quickly realize just how much waste product your fish are producing each hour, and with the warmer water, that waste can and will wreak havoc on your water parameters.  Keep that in mind if you decide to keep a substrate - Discus are very easy fish to keep, as long as the water they are in is absolutely clean, all the time, no exceptions!  If it isn't, they will get sick - period.

That is why people think they are a hard fish to keep, because, unless you have the unwavering discipline to keep up with water changes, despite whatever may be happening in your life, then your fish will not do well.  That, and good nutrition, is the only real 'secret' to these fish, and if you stick to a strict water quality routine, your fish will never get sick, will thrive, and eventually even spawn for you!

Good to hear that your one fish is starting to come around!  Keep up with the clean water changes, and the rest of the Discus will follow suit.  Contrary to what people think, they are a pretty tough and resilient fish!  Also, you should really consider aging your water if at all possible.  You said it comes out at 7.6 and settles in the tank at 7.4  which doesn't sound like much, but pH works on a logarithmic scale, so a small change in value is actually huge to the fish, who don't like the yo-yo effect of fluctuating pH.   All you have to do is have a couple of those blue water cooler bottles (the kind they use in office buildings at the water cooler) each one is 5 gallons.  You just fill it from your tub or sink, and throw a heater down the neck of the bottle (and maybe an airstone too), and let it sit for a day before you take the heater out, and use the water for your next water change.  If you have two of those bottles, you can do a 50% water change on your 20 gallon tank every day, and that should be enough to keep your Discus happy, and have them recovering in no time!
Well, I have to get some rest before I'm off working on the railroad again, keep me posted on your Discus' progress, just reply to this thread, I check it my youtube page at least once a day, and try to respond as soon as possible, especially if it's about sick fish, such as what you are going through.  
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   If I insulted you I apologize it wasn't my intention. I thought it may have been the salmon or something in the liver/heart I bought.  Your explanation between the two different strands makes sense to me.  Unfortunately I didn't do enough research on these type of fish and am learning the hard way.   The reason I went with your recipe is because I saw the quality of your fish and wanted mine to grow like yours were.   I am very appreciative of your help, I wish I would have reached out when I first noticed the fish not eating, I thought by going through SimplyDiscus I would get some help, unfortunately that didn't happen.  Since I started taking your advice my fire red has went from swimming on his side on the verge of death to swimming normal (still very pale).  I do not age my water.  I do vacuum my gravel once a  week.  I am not offended at all and appreciate your honesty.  I went with Hans fish because of hearing how hardy they were and his description of the fish say they would go good in a planted tank.  Unfortunately I had already the fish from LiveAquaria, in hindsight I should had ordered all my fish from Hans.  I am limited on space and don't think I could talk my wife into another tank but I need to serious reconsider scraping my 75 gallon and making it bare bottom if I am serious about keeping discus. The four fish are in my 20 gallon hospital tank.   Again, thanks for all the advice and responding so quickly.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Unless you put something in your Beefheart that wasn't in my recipe, then that food itself is not the problem, so you can stop worrying about that part of the equation.  Beefheart falling in between the gravel and fouling the water could definitely be a problem - do you vacuum your gravel?

You say you put the Discus Hans fish into the tank at the end of Jan. and now it's near the end of Feb, so that's about 4 weeks.  That's about how long it will take the average healthy Discus to start showing signs of illness.  This doesn't mean that the problem has just started, it means that the problem has been around for several weeks, in order for them to change from normal healthy fish, to fish who lose color and stop eating.  It will also take almost that long for them to start looking and acting better, even if you start fixing the problem immediately.  

I'm going to give you my brutally honest opinion of your situation,  so please don't get offended....

The fish you bought from LiveAquaria are lesser quality fish.  No offense to this particular site (I do not know for sure) but for the most part, sites like this, will buy fish from breeders in bulk.  They will not buy the breeder's A grade fish, and probably not even B grade, but C and D grade fish, and that way they get a better price.  Then these sites will sell the fish individually for exorbitant amounts of money. (I have visited the site, and at least this part checks out)  This is the way breeders rid themselves of stunted fish, and those fish with less desirable traits such as bad color, fins or body shapes - usually the eyes appear to be too large for the fish's body - a sign of slow growth.  A lot of less scrupulous Asian Discus breeders will sell their fish to sites like this, without a second thought as to the well-being of their fish, because all they care about is making money.

I know what you are thinking - but those are the fish that are doing well!   Correct.  Because those fish have come from a poor environment to begin with, and are accustomed to lesser quality water, have been over-medicated, and have a higher resistance to diseases than their siblings did (the siblings are the fish which probably died shortly after being delivered to the website's holding facilities), and likely that is the reason one of your fish died - it was at the end of it's ability to cope with it all.  These fish are often injected with hormones so that they show an abnormal amount of coloration, even when they are younger individuals, which will trick you into thinking that everything is okay with them once you get them home - and by the time 4 weeks is up and they start showing signs of problems, the website's warranty is long over.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, the next step is you introduced new fish from Discus Hans.  I know him, and he is a reputable breeder.  You should have bought all your fish from him, or someone like him.  His fish are well cared for, healthy and free of disease or pathogens, and are used to pristine water conditions, and bare bottomed tanks, etc.  So when you put them into lesser quality water, with the stress factors, they will be the first fish to show signs of stress and unhappiness.   You also didn't quarantine these fish - big mistake!  You should always put new fish into a quarantine tank for (my opinion) about 3 months.  If all is well after that, introduce one fish from your higher valued fish into the tank with your lesser valued fish, and give them a month together.  If all is well, you can probably add the rest, with relative confidence that nobody is carrying some weird parasite or disease.  The way you did it, you will never know if Hans' fish caught something from your existing fish (quite possible) or vice versa, or if the bloodworms were the culprit, or simple water quality.  

I believe you when you say that you monitor your water quality, and do frequent water changes, but a gravel bottom is always a recipe for disaster with Discus, just google it and read some of the debates and experiments done out there.

So you still havent answered the question - do you age your water before putting it into the tank??  

Also, since you bought your last batch of fish from Hans, he stands behind his fish.  I strongly urge you to look him up and give him a call.  Ask him his opinion of gravel in a Discus tank, and ask him what you think might be wrong with your fish.  He is a very knowledgeable man, and very willing to chat with his customers,  and I am sure he will reiterate many of the suggestions and comments I have made here.

Have you put your fish into a hospital tank yet? 
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish Yep, I check my water daily.  I get nervous if my Nitrates get over 10.  I usually change my water in my main tank every 2-3 days 50% or more.  The tank has been running for 4 years.  I am new to keeping Discus.  I bought three online from Live Aquaria during Thanksgiving last year, 1 blue checker board, 1 emerald blue, and 1 Marb red.  The Marb red only lasted 2 days, stressed from the shipment dies, they have a 14 day alive policy so I got my money back.  I was having an aggression problem so I ordered 4 more from Discus Hans a fire red checkerboard 3", a red checkerboard 3" and 2 red scribletts 2.5".  I added these around the end of Jan.  The last 4 are the four that I am having the issues with.  The LiveAquaria Discus are growing and doing fine in my main tank.  The fish from Discus Hans started off well but starting acting funny about 2-3 days after I made the beef heart mix.  pH is 7.6 out of tap 7.4 in tank.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish I was just on Simplydiscus, saw your post, and have a few of the answers I was asking for.
First things first. Juvenile Discus need large amounts of protein-rich food to grow properly and be healthy. This means you almost absolutely need a bare bottom tank, because the amount of detritus that you will need to siphon out from the left-over food and feces in the water will be significant, and will definitely affect your water quality = make your fish sick. Especially with beefheart, the leftover food particles are tiny, and will find their way deep into the gravel, where they will quickly foul the water at the high temperatures needed to keep Discus...
It's almost a guarantee you will have problems with a gravel bottom!!!

Young Discus need to be raised in a bare bottom tank with maximum water changes, and maximum amounts of small feedings every day, where they will be able to eat all of the food given to them in 10 minutes or less. If there is still food left over after 10 minutes, feed less next time, and siphon the remaining food out immediately.
When your Discus reach adult size, you can keep them in a gravel bottom tank (still very risky) if you have plants in there, and a cleanup crew (Plecos usually) and with small feedings, and constant water monitoring, it is possible.

You also have fish in there that shouldn't be in there, like the solitary tetra - most tetras are schooling fish, and will be stressed out by being alone, therefore becoming sick, and passing it on to other fish in the tank such as the Discus.
The Rainbowfish will chase other fish, stressing them further. The blue lobster will be active at night, as will the catfish, stressing the Discus further, and causing them to suspend high off the bottom, and again in a stressed state.

I am guessing by your reading the pH value straight out of the tap, that you are doing water changes right out of the tap? Very bad idea. Your municipality will from time to time add stuff to your water without telling you, and your fish will be instantly affected by it when you add water straight to your tank. This is especially true in the winter months. You will need a plastic tub or barrel or even plastic garbage can in which to pour your tap water into, aerate it, heat it to the same temp as your tank water, and only after 24 hours of sitting, letting the chlorine escape, and the pH levels stabilize should you use this water for your Discus water changes.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but if you want your Discus to survive this, and then eventually thrive for you, put them into the largest tank you can, high temperatures, lots of small air bubbles (one of those long blue stones is great) and lots of water changes with aged water, with a teaspoon of sea salt added each day, and no food for at least 3 or 4 days, then try a tiny spec of beefheart or freeze dried blackworms (no more bloodworms for now) and when they start pecking at the food, you can try some PraziPro soaked into the food, and in another week or so, you should see them coming around. Keep the tank dimly lit, mabey throw a towel over one end so they feel secure, and don't stress them by checking in on them every few minutes, just let them recover. When they do start eating and looking healthy again (and they will) don't put them back into the gravel bottomed tank, or they will go right back to being sick again, and this time it will be harder to get them back around again....also take the 2 "healthy" Discus out of your big tank and put them with the others. Although they are not yet showing symptoms, they are most definately also affected the same way as the other fish are. Keeping them in a larger school in the hospital tank will also help them to feel more at ease. Check out my angelfish video towards the end, you will see an example of some of my water aging containers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWGSE6shVnY

Also, don't be discouraged, as this happens to almost every beginning Discus keeper, and sometimes to seasoned pros as well.
Keep me posted on how your fish are doing, and best of luck!
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Okay, well you're taking the right steps.  You might want to get a better heater for the hospital tank though.  When Discus are healthy, 84 is fine, and 88 will definitely be better, but at the top end of its range, your heater may have a difficult time keeping the water at that temperature, and will tend to swing down into cooler temps, especially with the increased water changes you will be doing.  When Discus are fighting off an illness or parasite, you want them warmer at around 89, 90, 91 or thereabout so their bodies can naturally do their thing without any stress.  At these temperatures, and with a bit of salt, sometimes the fish will become better on their own and regain their appetites.  This may take a week or more, so just be prepared.  You can also look at getting your hands on a relatively safe medication such as Praziquantel found in most pet stores as PraziPro, and you can dose the water with that, combined with the increase in water temperature, and upped water changes, this should bring them around.

I should ask, what are your water parameters if you know them?  Water hardness, pH, and previous water change schedule, as well as how old are your Discus, and how long have you had them, plus where did you get them from?
Michael Brinson
Michael Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   I have joined the Simply Discus Forum, originally posted on 2.13.16 about the problems "Sick or Aggression" I have been having, updated with pics etc, but no luck on responses.  I have been doing 90% water changes in the hospital tank, I will spread it out to 3 30 % changes a day.  I kinda already have panicked and my have done more harm than good with medicating.  My heater in hospital tank goes up to 88 degrees, I was already at 84, I will bump up to 88 gradually.  My main tank is showing no other ill effects, the other two discus I have are still eating and acting normal.  Thanks for the response, I have been doing my own research but there is so much information and miss information out there that my head was spinning and like I said I may have made things worse.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Mike Brinson My bet is on the bloodworms being the cause. The Salmon can potentially have a lot of nasty qualities about it, but it isn't very likely to make your fish sick.
Okay, don't panic. First thing is to discontinue all the food for now -especially the bloodworms, and don't randomly medicate with anything for now. You will need to immediately start to increase your water temperature gradually until it is in the high 80's to low 90's if your heater will get you there (if not, buy one that will). Make sure you have plenty of aeration since water at that temperature will not hold much oxygen for your fish. Have a tub of water nearby where you can add water, age it for a day, and put a heater in there to bring it up to high 80's to low 90's, and I can't stress this enough - use this water to do as many WATER CHANGES, WATER CHANGES, WATER CHANGES as you can to keep your water immaculately clean. Three water changes of 30% of the water per day would not be too much. If your fish were healthy, you could potentially do much less water changes, but once they get sick, you need to overdo the water changes to nurse them back to health. Only when they are in the optimum water conditions, can their bodies begin to fight back to whatever is ailing them! You can add a couple of teaspoons of sea salt to the bottom of the tank each day - the fish may peck at it, and it may help relieve some of their discomfort....that's the first few steps, but more importantly, do the following.....

An excellent source of help for your fish can be found by joining this web forum

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/

once you've joined, you can log in, and go to their disease and sickness forum, fill out the questionnaire, follow the advice ofsome of the experts on the site (look at the # of posts, to determine who is who, or follow the advice of moderators only if you're not sure who to trust)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?319-Disease-Sickness-and-Medication

That should get you and your fish started on the road to recovery. Remember, if they need to ingest a medication, you can thaw some of the beef heart, and soak it in the dosage of medication, then slightly re-freeze it, and feed it to the fish. This is ONLY once they start eating again - if they aren't eating at all, then forget this, or any other food, as it will only foul your water, and do your fish no good at all. Adult Discus can go several weeks without eating a single bit of food. Best of luck, keep me posted with how your fish are doing, and start taking action right now, the sooner you start, the better their chances are!!
Mike Brinson
Mike Brinson - 8 years ago
+Mike Brinson  "if they start to lose their appetite, or stop eating altogether, you will have to medicate them,"  Well it has happened, after about a week of the beef heart 4 of my fish stopped eating.  It has been two weeks.  I am thinking internal parasites. I have moved the 4 to a quarantine tank and have been dosing general cure, only thing I can find with Metro in it.  Not sure if it was the salmon in beefheart or the bloodworms.
Mike Brinson
Mike Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   Thanks again, I have some Omega One Discus pellets that have Astaxanthin in it.  Thanks for the heads up on the bloodworms, I will pick up some Hikari brand next time I am at the pet store.  This is my second go round keeping discus, and I appreciate all your advice.  Looking forward to future videos.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Mike Brinson Not only is there no filler in this food, but it is fresher, you control what's in it, and it will cost you a LOT less to make it yourself.
A couple of things I wanted to comment on; 


first, regarding the peas, try putting in a tablespoon of the liquefied lettuce, then put them through the processor, it helps with the process.


second, if you have red Discus, try to get your hands on some Xanthophyll, Astaxanthin, or feed every other day with some Krill or even Tetra Color Bits food. All of these will hugely enhance the red color in your fish.


third, I have heard that some manufacturers of Bloodworms harvest them from very unsanitary conditions, and their guts are loaded with some nasty stuff, which could potentially make your fish sick. I have heard of some fish contracting Hex from such food. I am confident in the Hikari brand, as are many other Discus breeders, so just be cautious with your brand, and watch your fish carefully - if they start to lose their appetite, or stop eating altogether, you will have to medicate them, and your bloodworms would be my first suspect.


and lastly, about the Salmon. I used to use Salmon too. It is an excellent source of protein and good fats for your fish, if it is wild. The trouble is, I went out west to British Columbia in 2013, and I saw the wild Sockeye making their runs, and dying in the river for no apparent reason, still full of eggs. I didn't know why, and I started poking around on the internet. I found this documentary, and I will never use Salmon again, not wild, and definitely not farmed. The diseases they harbor thanks to the fish farms is not something I want my fish to be exposed to, but this is a personal choice, and if all you can find is Salmon, then it is still better than nothing. Check out this documentary and you will see what I mean....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTbxOFcvC4U



Again, great to hear that your fish are enjoying the food, any other questions, feel free to ask anytime.
Mike Brinson
Mike Brinson - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish   The only thing that I used that was different was the fish, I used salmon.  I also had the same problem with the peas, and my dog made out like a bandit too.   I have blood worms but they are not Hikari.  I really didn't realize how much filler the commercial freeze dried food that I had had in it until I made your mix.  I tried to match the amount I was normally feeding them (commercial freeze dried) with the stuff that I made on Friday, lets just say I overfed them.  Good news is soaking the liver was great advice because it didn't foul up my water.  My wife who never comments on my fish, told me she thinks my red checkerboard discus has already started to brighten up.  I will subscribe to your channel and thanks again.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Mike, I'm very happy to hear that! If you made it according to this recipe, then you can rest assured that your Discus are getting the best quality food that you can possibly give them, both in respect to good nutrition and taste - as your fish will attest to ;) Don't hesitate to vary their diet with some Hikari frozen bloodworms, or maybe some freeze dried california blackworms, and/or some good old live white worms; your fish will color up beautifully and this will likely put them into spawning condition too. I'd suggest subscribing to my channel, as I will be making several videos along these lines in the coming months - happy fish-keeping, and I'm happy to help with any other questions or concerns you may have.
Matthew Ng
Matthew Ng - 8 years ago
Those giant altum floras are amazing. Are you breeding them?
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Matthew Ng Absolutely Matthew, you'll be the first to know when I get them breeding again in a few months.
Matthew Ng
Matthew Ng - 8 years ago
Keep me posted please:)
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
+Matthew Ng   I can definitely ship, and when I get them back into the breeding tank in the spring (April/May) I will let you know, and if you're still interested, you can have your pick of the litter  :)I have had no problems selling the offspring as they are even more beautiful than the parents, with smaller, bright red eyes, and more vibrant blue colours.  Some have amazing patterns and swirls, while others are carbon copies of the male fish with straight dark lines on a blue background.  I have also been getting some very impressive fine lined blue snakeskins out of this pair.
Matthew Ng
Matthew Ng - 8 years ago
+Breeding Aquarium Fish If you ship, i'd be interested in some :)
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Thanks for the compliment Matthew, they are even bigger now since the time that I filmed this video, and the male is truly stunning if I do say so myself :) To answer your question, yes I am breeding them, and so far I have raised about 300 babies to adults from this pair. At this time, I am resting them for the winter in the community tank, and I will resume breeding them in the spring. I am thinking about doing a breeding video on Discus, but there are already so many out there, that I'm not sure if it's worthwhile - I'll decide in 4 months....stay tuned.
Michael Nasr
Michael Nasr - 8 years ago
Hallo, as long as I live in Germany I can't find the beefheart, so may I use cheep heart instead of beefheart?
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 8 years ago
Michael, I am sure you can find beefheart in Germany (my aunt lives there and in Berlin they have it in the butcher shops if you ask them to get it for you), but if you cannot find it anywhere, you can substitute round roast; you want a lean (least fatty) beef you can get, that's why Discus breeders use heart, as it is the leanest muscle in the body.  I wouldn't recommend using Sheep hearts as they have a very pungent flavor and odor which your fish may not like, and won't eat = bad water!Remember, the beefheart is only 1/3 of this recipe, and is probably the LEAST important.  Although it is called 'beefheart recipe' , the most important ingredients to your fish are actually the liver, and the saltwater fish fillets.  If you use round roast, use maybe 25% round roast, and 40% beef liver, 30% fish fillets, and 5% lettuce/peas/garlic/gelatin etc.   Also, you can throw in some clam meat, or any type of saltwater molluscs (rinsed of course) even octopus and squid or lobster meat or crab/crayfish will also be good to mix in, to take place of the beefheart.  Watch your water quality with seafood though, as it can foul the water very quickly if your fish don't eat it all; feed smaller quantities more often, and if your fish don't eat it all, take the time to siphon the left-over food from the bottom before it has a chance to affect your water quality.   Let me know how you make out, and feel free to ask if you run into problems!PS I am very jealous of your water - Germany has some of the best water in the world for breeding all kinds of aquarium fish, especially Discus - you definitely have an advantage there :)
Villa.Cardenas_5
Villa.Cardenas_5 - 9 years ago
what type of water do you use to breed your discus?
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 9 years ago
Generally the RO water is only used for breeding, and conditioning/stimulating the breeding pair prior to egg laying. The soft water keeps the membrane of the freshly laid eggs permeable so that they can be fertilized by the male. In hard water, the fish may still spawn, but the eggs very quickly absorb the hard minerals from the water, and your fertilization percentage will drastically diminish - even if the eggs do manage to become fertilized, there is a possibility that the babies will not be able to break out of the hardened egg 'shell' once hatching time arrives.
That being said, once the eggs hatch into wigglers, I start to slowly add a cup or two of aged tap water with every water change, and by the time they are free-swimming, I start aiming for 50/50 tap/RO, and with every water change thereafter, I keep adding less RO and more tap water to the aging tubs, until at about 2 weeks of age, the fry and parents are in 100% aged tap water. The young fish grow better with minerals in the water, and it is easier to do large water changes using readily available tap water. The parent fish don't mind it either, as long as it is aged for 24 hours prior to the water change being done (aging removes Chlorine, aerates, brings it to the right temperature, and stabilizes the pH)
I also use RO water to breed many of my aquarium fish such as Angelfish, Corys, Tetras of all kinds, Betas, and even BN Plecos seem to breed more readily in this water. I Use the "bad" water which is harder than straight tap water, to breed African Cichlids and other fish which like harder water. Hope this helps, and keep the questions coming if you have them - that's why I started making these videos, to help fellow hobbyists out.
Villa.Cardenas_5
Villa.Cardenas_5 - 9 years ago
Nice. Thanks for the reply. I'm just curious, do you also use RO water with all of your discus or only when you're breeding them?
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 9 years ago
I use pure R.O. (Reverse Osmosis), which is about 90% pure water when it comes out of the RO unit. I then fill an aging container, which is a plastic 18Gal (68L) tub with this water, add a heater to bring it to 84 degrees, an airstone to aerate it, and each week, I put in a new "sock" full of natural peat moss to bring the pH down slightly below 7.0 and to stabalize the RO water's pH swings. I use the water from this aging tub to do 50% water changes every day. I will put out a youtube video on how I breed my Discus in the coming months, so stay tuned.
mark beep
mark beep - 9 years ago
I am sure you know what you are doing, your fish a r looking great.  can I ask what breed of discus are they? thank you.
Breeding Aquarium Fish
Breeding Aquarium Fish - 9 years ago
Thank-you Mark. Those particular Discus are from breeder Tony Tan, and he called them "Altum Flora Stripe Turquoise". Names of strains can get confusing because different breeders call the same strains by different names sometimes. He has a strain which he calls "Altum Flora" which I believe were crossed with a Blue Turquoise to get the fish you see here. I am currently working on raising the third batch of fry from this pair, and once the first batch starts to colour up, I will be in a better position to know what the parents' genetics are. I will have a video on breeding Discus coming up soon.
J.M TROPICALS
J.M TROPICALS - 9 years ago
cool video i have subbed to u to please subb back to me cheers :)

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