Reviews 5 years ago 32,115 views
In this Joyride episode, we examine the merits of Slater's snub-nosed, bat-tailed bullet of a surfboard – the Cymatic. Watch above, then click below to read our full review: https://stabmag.com/hardware/an-honest-review-of-the-slater-designs-cymatic-surfboard?stage=Stage Film: Ben Judkins Art: Pentagram Pizza Music: People Under The Stairs
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The "The Joyride Board Test: Slater Designs Cymatic" video is part of the category, which contains similar videos like this one.
Is this a paid ad for Firewire.
and is used on Firewires LFT boards for that purpose as well. Which is their 1mm ultra high density deckskin. Their stringer is covered by a black paper tissue to give the impression of carbon but is really just hiding the pink colour of the Divinycell stringer. Just wondering what linear flex technology is meant to achieve. The fact that there is a sandwich construction on the deck would mean that the board would be excessively rigid even without the stringer. I used Divinycell as stringers, as rails and in sandwich construction on epoxy boards in the 80s . This is not new technology but old technology dressed up. Surftech boards and others have been made with this same construction since the 80s as well.
You must have been incredibly lucky with the water ingress issue. All my failures were a result of this. I get damage while surfing, don't get on to the repair fast enough because the waves are cranking, never get all the water out anyway (that sponge mentioned earlier). Fast forward 2-3mths and I have delam around the repair or even a crease stemming from the repair area. If it's repairable I will try again but it's always losing battle in the end.
I have had big issues with cracks around the fin boxes on the last three LFT boards (FCS & FCS2), which was never an issue on the previous FST (Futures and FCS). Once again. Split/crack, water in, repair, repair again. It's a slippery slope which results in major box breakout 2-3mths later. My last omni had all 5 boxes removed and re-glassed in the end. The upside is after the rear broke out I surfed it as a quad which was a revelation.
All these issues haven't stopped me going back (new cymatic). I wish I could resell or trade even just one though!
IMHO FST is easily three times more durable than a standard PU/PE board, ive had about ten in FST and only snapped one (in Indo), creased one, slightly, and only had few tiny punctures, like match stick head size, had one board got cracked rails from airline travel, ive slammed the boards into rocky cliffs on rock jumps expecting the worse and had trouble finding a scratch or crack.
Ive had no issues with delamans or sucking water, any tiny punctures ive had are out of the water, easy to seal quickly.
Timber tek, similar deal same with Helium
LFT or the old white rapid-fire, different story though as not composite, but that said for there weight they are still more durable than a PU/PE board of same weight.
BTW. I do agree they yellow faster, but where i live there is plenty in the second-hand racks that are white and mint, and plenty on eBay, as soon as you buy one just like a new car you loose a few hundred dollars, but after that they hold there value, at least her in Australia.
Personally ive picked a few up mint from Ebay for about $500AUD used them for a year and moved them on for what i bought them for.
I have not traded one in yet as all have died irreparably, to be fair I did surf them into the ground. A bit of tape on that rail split will not cut it with EPS/EPOXY. The decks don't compress the same as PU/PE but the boards go yellow way faster. Ever seen a secondhand rack with Firewires? Some may be almost 'dingless' but are a nasty yellow in comparison to the PU/PEs of similar vintage (cosmetic I know but re-sale is a thing sometimes).
With the Pro's don't ride them question. You can't beat the performance (see 'flex') of a fresh, light glassed PU/PE board. Until the flex characteristics of EPS/EPOXY or something else match or better the current PU/PE designs they will remain the go to at the 'pro' performance end of the spectrum.
I continue to use them mainly because I travel a lot and can get an identical replacement pretty much anywhere and I like the Tomo's now. Also I get to surf a pro/comp weight board with standard weight board durability (atleast before the water gets in).
I am 82-84kg and all the boards were in the 27-30ltr range. I still have one PU/PE ks12 (2yrs), and the monsta & cymatic (both 2mths), all the rest are contributing to the poisoning of the planet in a landfill somewhere.
taj pro model x2, bourez model x2, hashtag x2, ci ks12 x2, scifi x1, omni x2, js monstabox x1, cymatic x1
Because in the past i bought only PU/PE like most guys, my boards if very light glassed lasted 6 months to a year, if heavier glassed 1 to 3 years but i always found the heavier they were glassed, the less lively they were and I'm also not a fan of heavier boards (another reason i guess i like EPS/Epoxy)
I took a punt on a bargain FW board (brand new reduced price) as it was in the exact dims i was after, and it ended up being one of the best board I've ever had and thing lasted years until i snapped it in overhead Indo reef waves, but the lucky thing is, i could purchase the exact same board in same dims and it goes exactly the same and i still have that board..
Since that first board, I've had almost 15 EPS/Epoxy boards mostly FW's some i loved, some were ok, some not that great, just like any board label or just boards in general, what one person loves another hates.
I go to Indo every year for 1 to 2 months and travel a lot between islands etc and the best thing is while before airline damage was common, now its rare...and i just laugh at my mates fixing dings on their big name PU/PE boards before they have even got a surf.
Add to that, before because the life span of my PU/PE boards was so short, my quiver was small as id surf them until they were dead, now its the opposite, i still buy boards at the same rate, but I've got a whole quiver of different shapes...they don't die.ha ha..they just go yellow.
But to be honest, i don't even ride half of them as i tend to ride the the ones i love.
Have i found any decrease in performance?
Im no pro but can surf decent waves and sometimes one of the better surfers in the line up.
But no i haven't found a decrease in performance and i do still have the odd PU/PE board that I've picked up as a bargain second hand, and every now and then if my surfing is stale..i might think is it because of the EPS/Epoxy because of the negative talk from people like you about EPS/Epoxy and i will go surf one of my PU/PE boards, and sometimes i hate it. sometimes i love it...but generally a surf or two latter I'm back on one of my fav EPS/Epoxy boards.
So yeah, for me they work, and I'm happy with my boards.
I have made 1000s of boards and sailboards using vacuum bagging for Australia USA Japan. I think we got the process pretty wired over the years.
So maybe you could inform me of the different epoxy resins and there properties.
Vacuum bagging does not reduce resin. Using peel ply reduces resin, different process .When vacuum bagging whatever is on the board at the start is on the board at the end of the process.
I know about Hayden shapes process I do not know of less rigid epoxy if it is less rigid then it will dent easier. Which would defeat the purpose of using epoxy in the first place.
I have glassed several polyurethane boards in epoxy delamination was not a problem, snapping was because of the rigid nature of the resin.
Have you ever even seen vacuum bagging in action? Do you know that epoxy resins really need to be baked to get the best from using it.
Vacuum bagging polystyrene is a tricky process because of the risk of sucking the air out of the foam and shrinking the blank but you the expert would know this anyway. maybe you would know how this is controlled in the process and how to maintain the original shape of the board and then try putting it in an oven.
https://www.haydenshapes.com/technology/pe-technology/
Google it, plenty of talk about it on Swaylocks and Surfers design forum.
Traditionally my understanding was the combo can have issues with delams epoxy wants to bounce back to original shape, but the foam doesn't, but seems many are not having this issue these days.
In regards to epoxy resins there is so may different epoxy resins, they are not all the same or equal.
Reality is most guys that make boards, do what they know and have always done and don't have time or money to mess around experimenting with new construction techniques and the real benefits of Epoxy is when you get into vacuum baging (reducing resin) and composites...its not something guys are going to get wired over night, it takes a lot of time and money to master and get the results.
Answer RIGIDITY.
After ten years of surfing EPS/Epoxy its not even a factor...why?
Because to get an open ding is super rare when it has happened impact cracks and tiny little punctures its been out of the water, generally in transport, so easily sealed.
My boards last they look like new, so I'm motivated to fix any little cracks or punctures.
Reality is for me it was(and sytill is with the odd PU/PE board i have) always more of an issue with PU/PE boards, because open dings generally cracks in the tail area or rails happen much much more, even if you board hit you on the head or elbow or knee it cracks...and because it happens more often and often in the water i was always less likely to fix and seal.
And then your boards get old and beaten up much quicker than EPS/Epoxy that the motivation to fix something that is falling apart is not there.
Only negative i must say with Epoxy is occasionally you will get a board that yellows.
Its strange to have a board in almost mint condition, but its going yellow.
If i could just get full spray quality EPS/Epoxy boards, the id be completely happy.
Sorry but that is complete garbage, I've been surfing for about 30 years, surfed all kinds of boards and of the top three boards I've ever had one was a FW shape (by Nev)
Pros ride PU/PE because its what they know, its the standard and boards can easily be shaped and glassed.
There is no need for a pro to have a more durable board, they just need very light high performance board to win a comp.
They get whole quivers of boards and often doing even ride many.
And glassing schedule makes a huge difference to even PU/PE those very light glassed boards go amazing I've ridden them
The consumer like me does not, i
Shape is ultimately the most important thing and FW shapes are shapes by some of the worlds best shapers.
If i was riding a local produced shape like i use too, I'm getting very hit and miss shapes.
Glassing schedules what does that have to do with anything?
If you have aspirations to improve your level of surfing then you would be a fool to ignore the fact that the best are surfing PU. Sure they ride epoxies occasionally but mainly for sponsorship commitments as most of the Big name brands have had to come up with their own line of Epoxy boards to compete in the world of marketing hype surrounding EPS.
I know Firewire are constantly experimenting with glassing systems to stop water from entering the core but that always ends up being a compromise on performance and the general surfing public end up being the guinea pigs in the experiment.
Add that to the fact that water will eventually find its way into the foam core through inevitable damage to the laminate.Once water enters the core the process of breaking the bead bond is sped up and sped up rapidly if heat is added to the mix.Steam created the bond and steam destroys it.
Polyurethane has stood the test of time.
Boards made in the 50s and 60s can still be surfed today. I'm sure there is the odd epoxy EPS in existence from the past that never had much use. But most have ended up in landfill.
And there is the environmental aspect of polystyrene v polyurethane. Both aren't great for the environment but polystyrene is the most lethal to wild life in the form of those little floaty beads. But thats another story.
Why do you think its a problem?
For shaping yeah not as easy to work with, but personally i don't buy into it having a lack of performance and i think as we move forward the feel of PU/PE and EPS/Epoxy is becoming closer, when i jump between PU/PE and EPS/Epoxy i don't find huge differences in feel that i can peg down to materials in most cases its design differences...although without having the exact same two boards in two different materials it is hard to compare..
IMHO there is so many myths surrounding EPS/Epoxy that i guess stem from the early days of cheap pop out builds or more crude builds like surf tech. (no idea about there newer boards though)
Things like being corky or floating high etc....i mean i really wish it had that more extra float, i could then reduce thickness, volume/float as main need for volume/float is for paddling and catching waves, once up and riding less volume is needed as your board is on a plane and design aspects like bottom shape rails etc effect how a boards sits
In regard to rebound, spring, flex etc these things change with different stringers and glassing etc
I do think FW and some others probably talk up their tech from a performance aspect, flex etc...i don't buy into all that...i think it can be as good as PU/PE or is at times different but not better.
If i was a pro id ride a light glassed PU/PE board, because its safe and they do go great, but as a consumer I'm looking at a board that is light performs but also an extra degree of durability..
it's no different to how pros don't ride PU/PE boards in glassing schedules to what every day surfers do, because a degree of performance is lost and the needs of a pro and everyday surfer is different.
All that said, yeah sure there is a part of me that doesn't like buying from a big brand name like FW and i do miss the fact i can't customise a board with a nice spray etc
I just wish more Aussie guys were experimenting with EPS/Epoxy builds, but i can also understand why they don't as it is extra work which cost money and even as things are for what they are surfboards are under priced, so pretty hard to charge even more for an EPS/Epoxy board.
To be honest although I'm a fan of what FW are doing next board i will most likely get a Diverse Dynocore just to mix it up.
Anyway interesting discussion..Cheers
Pretty crazy to compare EPS/Epoxy to washing powder seeing there is so much product variation happening with EPS/Epoxy, different resins, and yes there is different EPS foams, and much variation in composite construction, different deck skins, you have different timbers being used for deck skins like balsa, paulownia, cork, different types of stringers centre, parabolic in a range of different timbers and other materials, you even have guys using hemp and other fibres, firewire is even working on using wool in the cloth.
On the other hand almost all PU/PE boards are exactly the same product, same blanks, stringers, very little variation in cloth glassing only difference is the shape and logos and maybe some artwork and maybe some use of carbon...but even then with the event of CAD and shaping machines we are even getting the same or very slightly tweaked files poped out by different shapers.
On the vintage collectable thing, boards that are collectable currently are generally boards that have nostalgic appeal or boards we wanted or had or by shapers that became big names, past EPS/Epoxy boards were generally limited to true pop outs like those pro circuit boards.
To suggest they are not in collections because they didn't last is pretty crazy, they were never taken seriously to begin with by surfers, and fir good reason they were at a very early stage in the evolution of epoxy boards.
Will we be collecting EPS? Epoxy boards in twenty years?....yeah id say we will like Josh Dowling, early Bert boards, very early FW boards, i can even see some unique FW board models will become collectable, like Tomos etc but that said at this stage it's kind of hard to imagine people wanting to collect mass produced boards of any construction really.
This is all just hype for a board made of a dud foam. HYPERFLEX XFOAM FST EXP the list goes on with the different attempts to rebrand Expanded polystyrene foam.
as each attempt fails you just give it a new name. Its like washing powder 'our washing powder gets things cleaner and whiter than any other."
It's really no surprise you don't see vintage epoxy boards in many collections as up until the last 10 to 15years they would have made up less than 0.5% of the surfboard market and even then, much of those boards were true epoxy pop outs like the old Pro Circuit boards (that are now becoming collectable) even now on a world scale the EPS/Epoxy board market must be under 10%??? of the overall market.
Personally as a consumer I'm a big fan of the development FW is doing with epoxy/EPS boards, i still ride PU/PE boards sometimes but I've also been along for the ride with FW for over 10 years now, and IMHO the tech is getting better.
Early days you had FST with plugs and Rapid fire with bamboo decks etc, with looked real ugly, they then got rid of plugs and bamboo decks.
Next phase was FST without venting plugs and a further development of rapid fire to white rapid-fire.
Now it looks like FST is being phased out and replaced by helium that IMHO is their best tech yet that takes the best aspects of FST and LFT, softer deck too LFT hat feels more like a PU/PE board but still has the FST type composite bottom skin and rails that are extremely durable.
That said I'm also a fan of others working with EPS/Epoxy like Bert and Dave from Diverse surfboards, plenty of others.
And for those that just want to still ride PU/PE or don't value durability so much, there is and will always be countless board makers to choose from.
Okay firstly LFT tech doesn't have carbon stringer, no FW boards use carbon and FW doesn't market anywhere they use carbon, they are very clear about what they use, you can see breakdowns of tech on their website.
The centre stringer is called "Aerospace Composite Springer" which is more like a very dense type of foam or something, and i think you will find even LFT tech is vacuum bagged, which reduces amount of resin used keeping weight to strength ration higher (most of the strength is in the cloth not the resin)..that said I'm not a huge fan of LFT it doesn't have anywhere near the durability of FST, Hellium, Timber tek, but it does have a feel very close to a traditional PU/PE board.
The black carbon look stripes are purely a painted design feature, purely cosmetic, yeah sure fair call to say they are cashing in on the trend with this look, but there is only so much you can do design wise cosmetically without getting into more expensive sprays that are not something all people want, the black centre stripes also cover up the shadow line of the Aerospace Composite Springer (that actually sits a few mils under the glass) if it was an only white board with no centre line, you would mostly likely see a fuzzy shadow of the stringer in some lights.
As for Epoxy being more rigid, not true at all Epoxy resin is actually less ridged than polyester resin, epoxy resin is more rubber like less brittle and once cured doesn't change much while polyester resin continues to cure all of its life and becomes more brittle over its life cycle.
If you have an decent impact/hit on a PU/PE board it will either shatter (because resin is brittle) or leave a compression, because the foam doesn't bounce back to shape.
EPS is favoured with Epoxy because EPS has very good memory after an impact it generally bounces back to its original shape, the epoxy resin being more rubber like, less brittle often bounces back with the EPS without shattering.(obviously not always there is limits)
Yes Epoxy/EPS combo boards can be more stiff but that happens because or when use of composite construction, LFT is in no way rigid and even FST, or Hellium compared to other composite builds is not stiff or rigid (the old Surf tech boards, yes they were very stiff and most likely were most of these wife tales off EPS/epoxy chatter effect comes from)
Guys don't do composite PU/PE boards because if you did, one they would be very heavy and two they would become extremely stiff.
I should add PU/PE boards over there life lose the lively feeling because of two things, the resin continuing to cure, and lack of memory in the foam, with every flex, cells gets crushed.
EPS/Epoxy combos never lose that lively feeling because one the resin doesn't continue to cure and two the EPS has memory and returns to shape.
Almost all pros ride PU/PE because its a safe bet and its what most board levels that sponsor guys shape, it's what we all know and pros get given huge quivers of boards, durability is not a factor, boards are even glassed much lighter than what everyday surfers ride.
That said Taj, Michel & Sally have all won a few WSL comps on EPS/Epoxy combos
Not sure why you don't think this shape cant cut it in mushy surf, the board has a moderate rocker with a lot of foam in the front half of the board it would glide over flat sections a lot better than most HP boards.
10. comment for The Joyride Board Test: Slater Designs Cymatic
20. comment for The Joyride Board Test: Slater Designs Cymatic