Fixing Sailboats -Can You Trust the Rigger? New headstay Inside Profurl, Sailboat How To Videos #21

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for Fixing Sailboats -Can You Trust the Rigger? New headstay Inside Profurl, Sailboat How To Videos #21

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Anthony Lee - 5 years ago

Would 3m 5200 be an ok alternative to butyl? Also would ceramic antiseise ( automotive brake lube) be a good alternative to lantic?

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

No and No. As the owner of Shannon yachts, in Bristol, Rhode Island once told me, 5200 is not flexible enough and will eventually pull away from the metal creating a leak....he was talking about bedding a jib track. I didn't believe him so used it to seal the chain plate to deck join. He was right. If you did use 5200 inside a mechanical terminal anyway, to get it undone at a later date, it would take a propane torch to soften it up. I have never used brake lube so would stay with what is proven to be successful....although a very experienced cruiser has assured me that Tefgel works better than LanoCote. That is a result from a rugged long term experiment.

AREO - 5 years ago

Thanks mate, your the man, appreciate your vids, very informative.

AREO - 5 years ago

+Patrick Childress Sailing no problem mate, your a great bloke and your proactive commentary on sharing information is a blessing to the boating community. Fair winds and peace brother.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Thank you Aero. Always appreciate the positive comments.

S/V Tattoo - 5 years ago

I have a handheld impact driver in my tool bag that really comes in handy for removing frozen bolts and screws. I have included a link to a similar product.

https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/6763a5b6-88b0-48c4-a7e9-47fb3aaf1913/svn/tekton-screwdriver-sets-2905-64_1000.jpg

EDIT: Just saw this mentioned further on down in the comments. :)

Simon Cox - 5 years ago

Enjoyed a lot. Is there a reason you have to use butyl? Could a polyurethane sealant work like say sikaflex?

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

I was at the Shannon boat factory in Bristol, Rhode Island, looking at a new boat they were building. I asked the owner of Shannon what bedding compound he used for bedding the just installed jib track. He said, butyl. I asked why he did not use 3M5200, a strong polyurethane sealant. He said, 5200 is not flexible enough and will eventually pull away from the metal causing a leak. I did not believe him so used 5200 for caulking my chain plates. He was right. A polyurethane sealant does not work well. Sikaflex is a brand like 3M and makes many different types of sealant. Stay with something that is very sticky yet expands and contracts well; butyl is a good choice although there might be another good choice or two. But not a polyurethane.

Andie deRoux - 5 years ago

Very informative!

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Thanks, Andie.

Snake Plisken - 5 years ago

Is this the right stuff? https://www.amazon.com/Red-Devil-06970I-Rubber-Sealant/dp/B000LGCEES/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1544545992&sr=1-4&keywords=butyl+sealant#customerReviews

nobody46820 - 5 years ago

OMG! Where to start? I don't know any real man or professional who isn't open to new/differnt ways of doing things or new products/technologies. I am a professional marine rigger and am deeply ashamed at these so-called "professionals". Out them! I want to know who to avoid, no wonder they didn't want to be filmed! They obviously aren't professionals much less real men. Their incompetence could cost lives.

spencer marshall - 5 years ago

I learned the hard way and now only keep cobalt M-42 drill bits around. I also keep a Drill Doctor and a belt grinder to sharped them with along with plenty of spare bits in the most common sizes. Anti-Seize in my galvanic protection coating of choice. I tend to stay with the pulverized aluminum compound except in high heat areas like exhaust manifolds where I use the pulverized bronze compound. I will in fact take bolts out of things that need no repairs to coat them with Anti-Seize compound just to be sure when the time comes for maintenance and repairs that I am not swearing a lot. Busted Easy Outs can be ground out with tungsten carbide Dremel tool bits. You have to be very careful and go very slow because if you break a tungsten bit off inside a fitting you're quite screwed. Johnnie paychecks being pushed to perform repairs in time frames that don't allow for the care that is needed to do the work correctly is something all should be aware of. Then there are those who simply do not care and are in fact not being pushed for profits.

spencer marshall - 5 years ago

+Patrick Childress Sailing The issues I have had with straight drilling to the perfect outside dimensions are always with keeping the drill straight and perfectly centered all the way into the shank. That is why I began using Dremel tools with tungsten bits to round out the holes and keep better track of those issues. It takes good lighting and patience but I can count the times I have had to go to a helicoil on one hand after decades of using that method. As the Dremel reaches the proper diameter for easier thread extraction the swirl of the threads becomes very pronounced before you punch through them into the base medium threads. I have broken a few tungsten bits too, but in those cases there was always enough room below the bolt to drive the tungsten bit into for safe holding until I was done with that operation and could extract it using needle nosed pliers. Slow and steady with the tungsten bit is the only way to mill out the final dimensions that will allow you to fill the hole with penetrating oil and allow for what should from there be fairly easy extraction of the remains while salvaging the medium threads for further use. Many of the time these operations go down they do so in less than ideal conditions for being able to get the multiple angles of sight needed to insure the drill is running straight and on center. I get it as close to that as I can but rarely succeed to the degree needed to insure the medium threads are not going to be whacked. So I just go as large as I can and then use the Dremel from there. It is very hard to expect milling machine or even drill press accuracy with a hand drill. In fact it is impossible more often than not to get the accuracy in drilling one needs to not hit the medium threads to the diameter needed. Once a hole runs off to the sides or wanders from center it is impossible to properly correct that with a drill. And yes, when bolts shear off it takes more than just a center punch to center up for the pilot drilling. A round tipped Dremel tungsten bit is perfect for spotting up a pilot. There is also something to be said for a small index of reverse twist drill bits as well.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

+spencer marshall Spencer, Thank you very much for posting this valuable information. I will now be using my Dremel for spotting prior to drilling. Any time I used an Easy Out, it did seem to me that the tool would be pressing even harder against the outsides which in effect would be counter productive. When it seemed I was ready to break the easy out, and the screw would still not turn, I would go to the next larger easy out and drill a larger hole. There are times, as you say, drilling the hole so big, the unwanted threads would peal out like a spring. Maybe that is the best way to go.

spencer marshall - 5 years ago

+Patrick Childress Sailing I tend to not use Easy Outs. They can swell the bolt shank putting even more pressure into the threads. I generally go straight for a drill and then size up as far as I can go. I use a Dremel tungsten bit to spot the center of the shank before drilling to insure the drill doesn't wander off center. Once I get to a respectable inside diameter I the use the Dremel with a tungsten bit to slowly round out. Once the threads can be seen emerging I fill the hole with a penetrating fluid. A dulled out bottoming tap can be used to lock onto the remainder of the bolt shank for extraction. A sharp tap will tend to want to get sucked into cutting the softer material around the bolt shank taking out the wrong threads. A pick can sometimes get enough of the top threads away from the sides and a pliers used to extract what then looks like a spring of threads. I have very rarely used an Easy Out because of the breakage issues. As mentioned earlier though, you have to be very careful with those tungsten Dremel bits, snapping one can be disastrous. If worse comes to worse and I have to sacrifice the threads then it's time for a helicoil. I have also machined over sized bolt shanks and slotted them to screw into over sized and tapped holes and then drilled those to the proper size and tapped them to take in the replacement bolts of the original dimension too. Getting good at these things can make you quite popular in cruising circles.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Thanks for the comment. I did not know there was a designation for the type of cobalt drill bit. Like you, I am now a big believer in cobalt drill bits. While working in the diesel engine shop at the U.S. Army base at Kwajalein Atoll, in the Pacific, they had a tool specifically designed for removing broken easy outs. It had strong wires that slipped into the broken easy out then a ring descended to tighten the wires. Twisting with a wrench allowed the opposite rotation of the easy out for extraction. Not a tool one would find at the local hardware store.

oldergeologist - 5 years ago

A impact driver would have possibly been the answer.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Of all the tools I have on this boat, that is a tool that just got on a "to get" list. I agree, it probably would have worked. Out here in bumfunk nowhere, such things are hard to find.

10. comment for Fixing Sailboats -Can You Trust the Rigger? New headstay Inside Profurl, Sailboat How To Videos #21

Mike Scala - 5 years ago

Patrick, GREATEST DIY maintenance videos on the net with out a doubt ! I ran across your channel this evening about 6:30pm by accident and have been watching all your videos all night. It's about 4:30am now and the sun is starting to crest the horizon. I look forward to following you, and your camera shy better half, around the world with all your adventures. Please keep up the great videos and stay safe.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Thank you Mike. The videos are fun to make and I think Rebecca is slowly warming up to the idea of getting involved....

corujariousa - 5 years ago

I admire your knowledge and energy to take on the projects. I completely relate to your comments about blind trust on "professionals". I've had to intervene many times myself on different projects. Some folks may have the know-how but may not have a commitment to quality. Just want to make money and move on quickly to the next job. Stay safe and strong.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Corujariousa, Thanks for the comment and for watching.

johnny llooddte - 5 years ago

no you cant.. its 50/50 at best

SailPalarran - 5 years ago

Hello Patrick.
I had a very weird connection to this video last night and wanted to share it. I own a 2001 Fountaine Pajot with a profurl reefing drum. It's in a yard in Freeport Bahamas getting some repair work done and we were discussing a problem with the extrusion tubes. My lowest one is loose and it separates about 1/2 inch sometimes. The top set screws are tight and the inter tube is fixed there. It's the lower section set screws that are not somehow holding the coupling in place. Well, the yard, nor the island has a rigging professional to look at this so they were going to fly one in from Fort Lauderdale. I told the guys I didn't think I could afford that right now and would think about it. So I got back to my hotel room, drank a beer, and watched a few YouTube videos. I regularly watch sailing videos so - and this is the weird connection - your video of shooting off the flairs popped up on my screen. I half watched it - it was good but didn't really apply to what I do and kind of zoned it out. That video was followed by this one though and what a crazy coincidence. You go into detail of the set screws and how you put in an extra one to make sure they stay tight. It was exactly what I needed to know and literally 3 hours after needing - without searching!! Thank you for taking the time and effort to make these videos. I do have a few questions and wondered if you wouldn't mind communicating with me via e-mail. You can contact me via the name of my channel + @gmail.com

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

That is great you were able to get some use out of the video and hopefully save you some money. I sent you a PM via gmail.

umvhu - 5 years ago

Nutlock is your friend, make it a habit to ALWAYS put nutlock on threads exposed to the environment. It has 2 advantages, 1 the loosening force will always be proportional to the tightening force, and 2, it excludes oxygen, electrolytic corrosion cannot happen without oxygen.
Big thumbs up!

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Thanks for the tip. There are experienced cruisers who don't care much for LanoCote and prefer Tefgel but I will give Nutlock a try.

Agora Vai - 5 years ago

Tanks!

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Thanks for watching.

Michael Simpson - 5 years ago

I think you have an NZ made Manson Anchor there in shot as you finish up the video. What do you think of it? I bought one, and as it came, it looked a bit like a Friday afternoon job. There are a couple of sharp dags on it, the gal on the shank is chipped in several places and the quality of the welding looked a bit so so.... I was going to buy a SARCA, but my mate at the Chandlery talked me into the Manson. Had I seen it prior to purchase, I probably wouldn't have left the shop with it. When I picked it up from the store, my mates wife had just had a stroke a week or so prior so that sort of distracted me, I just took it and left. Mechanically its probably fine, I'm just not happy having to take a grinder to a new product and applying cold gal to fix what shouldn't need fixing......

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Sounds like it had been thrown around during transport to the store. We had a Bruce which served us well for many years. The Bruce, however, would slip on smooth coral or very, very, soft mud. We wanted to follow the design improvements and go with something with a more pointy end. So far, the Manson is doing well in all conditions. We are happy we bought it. I wish we had room on the bow for the old Bruce but the CQR is the only other anchor that will fit next to a primary anchor. The CQR is well proven to fail but has helped as a backup.
Thanks for your comment.

Muskietime - 5 years ago

Another great video. I subscribed. Amazing that a French company, Pro Furl, can shut customer service off for a month! Watching you at the top of the mast reminds me how much I always hated going up. My rule was if it looked dangerous but needed to be done, I would not send anyone up but me. Regarding backstay loading: We used to play with backstay pressure all the time when racing. Soft backstay, 1,500 psi on the hydraulics when sailing downwind and 6,000+psi sailing upswing. It’s all about mainsail shape. We would load the mast up so much sailing upwind that the door to the Head would be stuck closed.

I did no see it but the America’s Cup boat that lost its mast probably had Runners. If the windward runners are not released and new windward runners loaded at the right time during a tack or jibe, you can lose the rig.
So wonderful to see folks “living”. God Bless and Fair Winds to you two.

Eric Ryan Modelling - 5 years ago

That 1 turn mentioned...a rigger looking out for you? Think about it...stress happens. Love your vids. Very informative!

Patrick Childress Sailing - 5 years ago

Thanks, Eric.

Kevin - 6 years ago

A great video. I learned. Thank you.

Being pretty good at working on my home I agree much of the time I will do a better job at some things than a professional will do. Mostly because it's mine and it is not theirs so my heart is in it while they are just earning money. But with many years of experience a professional can do things I don't know how to do. So it's educational to work with them but also make the extra effort on some things they will not. I read someplace that a sailor used lanolin on his prop blade surface and it worked well to keep growth off.

Kevin - 6 years ago

I will. Thanks again.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

Thank you Kevin for watching the video and the positive comment. I had really hoped to learn some sort of new tip from the rigger but unfortunately what was learned was totally unexpected. I have used lanolin smeared on the blades of my prop and saw no realistic improvement for keeping marine growth off. Check out the hookah, cleaning the bottom, video and you will see how much marine growth attached to the chain yet how little was on the Propspeed treated areas and what little was there, was very easy to wipe off with a soft rag. Propspeed worked better than the copper antifouling on the rest of the hull.

20. comment for Fixing Sailboats -Can You Trust the Rigger? New headstay Inside Profurl, Sailboat How To Videos #21

Rebecca Childress - 6 years ago

Follow Patrick and Rebecca on Brick House on their travels, fixing their boat in exotic locations and their other adventures aboard SV Brick House on http://www.whereIsBrickHouse.com

Rebecca Childress - 6 years ago

Follow Patrick and Rebecca on Brick House on their travels, fixing their boat in exotic locations and other adventures on http://www.whereIsBrickHouse.com

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

There was a comment posted here by a viewer but somehow the post disappeared. The poster was concerned that I used a line brought over the top of the mast to lower the furler assembly, while I sat in the boson’s chair, rather than me descending back down to the deck and using a halyard secured around a winch at the base of the mast. I won’t try to rewrite the whole dialog but will just post the essence. Either way works on my 40’ sailboat. A much larger boat with a heavier furler, an owner might want to use a halyard to ease down the furler. For raising the furler and head stay back and precisely positioning it so the clevis pin could be set in the stay terminal, my helper used the jib halyard to raise the furler/head stay. So, to repeat what was said in the video, the spinnaker halyard and running pole topping lift were set up as temporary head stays and the jib halyard was used to raise the furler back in place. The commenter wondered why I did not tie an independent line around the top of the mast, down to a turning block at the bow and back to a primary winch as a temporary stay. With the spinnaker halyard and pole topping lift doing the job, there was no need for any additional support. But I do want to stress his concern that I chose not to use a halyard to lower the rig to the dock. This procedure was not an experiment. I have worked with this method in the past. Do the job in which ever way you feel most comfortable.

Martyn Tozer - 6 years ago

I had a rerig pria to a circumnavigation and thanks to my regular boat maintenence guy found he had not changed for stay,he did the same to the chap opposite me.how many others is anyone's guess

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

Martyn, it is amazing how much shoddy work is done by boat "professionals" every where in the world. A boat owner is running a high risk by blindly trusting any of them to do it right without looking over their shoulder. Thanks for watching.

TheCopaMundial - 6 years ago

Imagine that whole stripped bolt fiasco could have been avoided if you had a hex head socket.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

Amongst the loads of tools already on this boat, a set of hex head sockets would be a nice addition, if I could find a place to store them. Maybe one day I will show you just how much of the storage on this boat is taken up by tools, nuts, bolts, spares, power tools and repairs materials. That bolt was so frozen in place that any form of hex head wrench would strip out the hex head of the bolt. It seems to be a common problem if an antseize is not used upon assembly. But, maybe an electric impact drill with a hex head would do something positive. Thanks for watching and the hex head socket idea.

Doug Marder - 6 years ago

Have you checked with ProFurl to see what they recommend for initial backstay tension when installing a new SS headstay with furler? Perhaps this is why the rigger over-tensioned your backstay, and why you had the rubbing on the foil from the previous, under-tensioned backstay? Looking forward to your follow-up on this when you reach Madagascar!

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

Kurt, thanks much for your great information, which obviously comes from a history of experience. If you were in Reunion, I would have hired you to help put things back quickly and accurately!

krrt66 - 6 years ago

Loved the video, and like others wondered why - what with all the work you had done before the rigger got there - you were bothering to hire him. :)

Some thoughts on rig tension and numbers thereof:
Noted that to have a no-sag forestay, your guy had the wire at over 25%, even pushing 30% of breaking strength according to the Loos gauge. Zoiks! I agree with you, that needs backing off. Under the strains of sailing, the wire will still stretch and 'settle in' over time just fine at 10 or 15%, especially at sea where shock loading will temporarily load up much higher from time to time.
Shock loading is why the 'at rest' figure for wire tension is seemingly so conservative. Think of the extra 80-90% of breaking strength as a safety reserve, insurance for an ocean cruiser who, unlike inshore or coastwise racers/sailors, is a long way away from a dock or a tow if the rig fails.
Imagine a wire at near 1/3 breaking strength *while at rest*, taken out into the ocean while attached to a multi-ton boat which suddenly drops off a wave face... That not uncommon scenario could easily create a shock load which uses up the other 2/3 of the wire's reserve strength, and then you'd have real trouble. This is why I like to "keep a little back", because it always seems that the ocean will find a way to take every bit you have otherwise. ;)

WRT the 'twang' method, or "acoustic tensioning" ;) from what I understand/have experienced, when you tension up just past 'thunk' to twang', you've achieved ~10-15% of breaking strength for the wire - which is about where you want to be for the above reasons. So while twang-tuning may not be scientific, it is still fairly accurate, at least enough and on the safe side of the scale to be a "quick and ready" solution. Obviously much better than doing it by eyeball, like the rigger did.

If I could offer an idea? While still at dock, I'd back the stay off to obvious under-tension, then 'thunk' and tighten it back up until you think it might be right, just into the 'twang' range, and then get out the Loos in order to find out how accurate your ears are. :) That will be educational, and knowing the particular note you need to hear for your wire will also allow you to have the ability to get a rough idea of backstay tension when under sail/at sea, without having to dig the Loos out of storage.
Fair winds, and thanks for the video - I'm a new subscriber! :)
Kurt
sailFar.net

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

Hi Doug, According to the rigger, France is on a major holiday right now and Profurl, being French, is closed for a month, so I have not heard back from them. In the owners manual for Amel sailboats, like the Maramu, there is a specific back stay tension. It is hard to find the same specifics for other brands of boats. Hopefully, Profurl will eventually come up with some numbers. It is amazing to me how many people, even one yacht designer I contacted, just use the “twang” method for tuning, without any over tensioning considerations. For the shrouds, one just makes sure the leeward side is not loose while actively sailing but the back stay, I believe, needs a specific do not exceed number. Remember that America’s Cup sailboat that folded in half?! I will certainly post any new information, here. Thanks for your comment.

Matt Ray - 6 years ago

Good job, Patrick. Thanks for posting.

Rebecca Childress - 6 years ago

Hello..it’s Rebecca...brilliant Patrick’s wife... Don’t forget to also subscribe to our blog at www.WhereIsBrickHouse.com. A lot of Patrick’s articles (as well as mine) from the last decade + are on there, as well as some of the fun we have, and products we use. I hope you will follow us here AND on the blog!

Matt Ray - 6 years ago

Sure no problem. I thought this one was great though. I enjoyed the music throughout in the background. I mean you kinda got screwed by your inability to show what you did in real time, but you made up for in the technical tutorials afterward. I thought it had tons of excellent information in it.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

Thanks for watching, Matt. Maybe you would preview the next one for me?

jwrappuhn71 - 6 years ago

Good info, good job sir.

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

Thank you for watching.

Archie - 6 years ago

Titanium is about 5 times stronger than Aluminum and stronger than your Hex wrench

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

There are a lot of different grades of titanium, each with different characteristics. I have not been able to find out what grade titanium these bolts are made of. Grade 1-4 is pure titanium but the smelting process gives each a different characteristic. Grade 5 titanium is a blend of metals making it 3.5 times stronger than 316 stainless steel. The strength of Ti5 is about the same as a grade 8 steel bolt. The chainplates, mast tangs and clevis pins on Brick House are made of grade 5 titanium. There is a very good article in Practical Sailor about titanium. I am not sure what my allen wrench is made of. The rigger was very wide eyed when he saw I was able to drill through the bolt.

Mr. E - 6 years ago

So why did you hire those "pros"? You make informative videos, thank you.

Rebecca Childress - 6 years ago

Patrick Childress Good answer Patrick. That’s the awesome thing about you...you know so much already but you are always trying to learn more from paid professionals! Sometimes they should pay YOU...but you still always manage to learn from them. Nobody is perfect..not you, not the supposed experts...but for an older dog, you are always learning new tricks!

Patrick Childress Sailing - 6 years ago

That is a good question and, unfortunately, a common one asked by many boat owners when dealing with hired boat workers. In my case, I wanted good, experienced, people to make a quick, accurate, job of putting the head stay rig back together. I did not want to be out on the dock for 12 hours working on this project, even with willing friends. Additionally, I was hoping to learn something new from an experienced rigger, shortcuts, a better way, or something I simply failed to notice previously. You never know where the next bit of learning experience is going to come from. Even a person who has no direct experience with a project might have other experiences which brings fresh eyes and another view and a great solution. But this rigger did help us get the new extrusions through the terrible customs labyrinth. He also loaned me his propane torch to try to heat the two bolts loose. He was helpful in many ways. There is a quote from a friend in Connecticut about the boat yard workers he had to deal with; “Those are the most inexperienced, overpaid, people I have ever had to deal with. Maybe the owner of the company knows what is going on but the people he sends out to do the work, don’t have a clue.” Certainly my pro rigger was better than the workers the boat owner in Connecticut had to deal with. The reality is, any time you hire people to work on your boat, you still have to be a manager.

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