Sailing 7 years ago 30,161 views
Herby describes the ins and outs of our electric motor. Our motor isn't from Electric Yachts and is their QT20 supplied by a 210ah 48v battery bank. Support us on Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/riggingdoctor Follow us on Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/riggingdoctor Check out our website: http://www.riggingdoctor.com
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The "Our Electric Motor | Sailing Wisdom Ep 32" video is part of the Sealing, tipps, boating category, which contains similar videos like this one.
Unless there’s somebody out there who is flipping your bill then, hey.... maybe they have a say!
Thanks for the link!
10. comment for Our Electric Motor | Sailing Wisdom Ep 32
Once we are going, I do turn them back on when we are running the generator and nothing has happened with that fuse (not really sure how it would cause that fuse to blow, but I do carry a spare just in case).
About the current pushing you into land or rocks with wind not being present or blowing you onto shore:
Option A is to drop anchor and ride out the storm anchored and move on once it has passed.
Option B is to not sail through those areas if weather like that is coming. When we sail tricky places, we anchor and wait for good weather, then we make the tricky sail and continue on without a problem. When we sail offshore, we sail really far offshore so that we would not be blown onto rocks or a Lee shore. If we do find ourselves being blown aground, we would revert to Option A.
I do know that if you reduced the voltage, the amperage would increase and you would then need to use thicker wires to supply the power. In our case, flowing 400w at 48v, we needed to use 2-0 cable which cost around $10 per foot. Thicker wire would cost more. While we do have a powerful motor and thick cables, we never use it at maximum capacity. I actually have the unit governed to 60% (so full throttle is only 60% throttle). Even so, we never push it that hard. Most of our motoring occurs in the range of 1.5% to 15% of total output, so having a much smaller motor would work fine for most of all our average needs.
How big is your boat? And is your oar blade oriented vertically or horizontally?
The aging process of batteries gets a bit complicated when there are parallel strings. This crept into your installation due to the choice of 12 volt batteries rather than 6 Volt. When batteries become discharged, the internal resistance rises and with age it gradually gets higher, and when the various batteries gradually become different, you can and most likely will see that one string in the bank will become different than the other. The problem is that with parallel charging, the current must split and the one string that is in worst condition, due to it's higher resistance, is the one that will get proportionally less charge current (Ohms Law).
This condition gets worse as you go along and has an increasingly troublesome component in that when you stop charging as in nighttime with solar, then the one string that is in the better charge state is now tied to the one in worse charge state and thus will expend part of itself trying the equalize the worse string.
To point out how suttle differences can contribute to this situation, take a look at the wiring on top of the stack. Observe the points where the solar charge wiring is connected. If you trace out the two parallel paths that the solar charge must take, you will see that the front stack gets an advantage because both of the wires that tie the back string together with the front string are in series with the back string. While they are large cables and thus add relatively small resistance, they do add some and thus the rear cells are at a small competitive disadvantage initially, which is the way this process starts. (FYI: this minor difference can be remedied by moving either solar wire to the opposite end of it's respective tie wire).
My suggestion is that you consider obtaining a modern multimeter that can do CLAMP ON DC CURRENT measurement capability. These are very useful troubleshooting tools and will allow you to check for differences in performance without disturbing the electrical connections. (As an example, Google or eBay : Fluke 365).
In closing, I had an electric car back in the early 80's and I fought battery problems everyday for years (Google: CitiCar). Note, that I told the sailinguma guys that their numbers did not add up while they were in construction but they had all the answers. About a year later, they did a total replacement on the entire battery stack, from what they explained as "a problem with chronic undercharging". The concern being that if you are running the house on 48 Volts, and only adding a few amps to them, I expect a chronic undercharge of the propulsion stack.
You need a power budget that leads to more watts/hours in than out on at very least, a weekly period, or less if possible. That means knowing every load in watts x hours and comparing that to every source of charge in watts x hours. (Watts = Volts x Amps) . So if a plotter is on at 12 Volts and 1 Amp for 24 hours, then that is 12 x 1 x 24 = 288 watt/hours. Add it ALL up. On the charge side, same math, 3 Amps into 48 volts for 8 hours: 3 x 48 x 8 = 1152 watt hours. Clearly, you have one chart plotter covered easily, what what else ? Running the motor at 50 Amps at say 40 Volts for 6 minutes: 50 x 40 x.1 = 1352 watt hours. So now we see, in this example, it takes more than a day of solar charging (in the above example) with everything on the boat turned off, to make up for the 6 minute motor run. A clamp on DC Ammeter will greatly facilitate these measurements.
If you don't have more coming in than going out, then you need more of something...time on dock power, more solar, wind turbine, Regen ??? (I'd need to see this one to believe that it amounts to much since you need to spin fast enough to produce voltage greater than the battery voltage just to begin to charge) Please let me know if the second motor has something to do with this!
This discussion is based on simple principles of electricity and physics. Don't take my word for it, do your own research and draw your own conclusions but please don't ignore them.
I really wish you great success and I look forward to following along! Fair winds1
The second motor is simply present to compliment the first. Each motor is 10kw and instead of making a bigger single motor, they just hook two motors to the shaft in parallel.
We have two voltages in the boat, a 12v for the house (2 battery banks) and a 48v for the motor (it's own bank). The solar panels on the stern charge the motor bank and the house doesn't draw from it. We do have a step down converter which lets us draw from the motor bank but we view that as an emergency power supply, not a daily power source.
The motor does take a few days to charge from limited use, which is why we use it as little as possible.
When the batteries are rather low, we can either tie up for a night and let the battery charger bring everything up to speed or crank up the generator for several hours to charge it all up (we got a generator to let us motor along the ICW).
Our power production is very limited and while regent does produce a significant amount of power, it is far too unreliable to plan for it to serve as a power source. Therefore we calculate everything on the solar panels and whatever we get from regen is merely bonus to the batteries.
While I have not actually calculated our exact power consumption, I do watch our voltage. I try to keep it around 12.7v but on cloudy days we won't charge and the voltage starts to drop. The first thing to be turned off is the refrigerator when we reach 12.2 volts. This is our biggest power draw. Our second power draw is the chart plotter and depth sounder. When close to shore, we have them on and they seem to push us past our charging abilities. When we are offshore, I turn it all off and we navigate with paper charts because it's a wide ocean! This helps keep our power struggle even and us charged.
Regen is nice in the ocean because the winds are constant. The propeller needs to be turning around 350rpm for it to start charging. When we are doing 8 knots and it is producing 3.9 amps @ 48v, the propeller is spinning in the neighborhood of 750-850rpm.
These boosts are nice, but as soon as the wind calms, the power goes away.
I will be relocating the solar charge wires soon. Should I move the positive and negative wires to the series of batteries farthest from the large battery cables that leave the battery box?
If you want to power an air conditioner and autopilot, then yes it is a pipe dream.
We are powering a few interior lights, our nav lights, and the radio. To us, a nice boost in power when sailing over 6 knots is a bonus to what our solar panels are producing. So for us, regen is a nice feature that comes from our electric motor.
20. comment for Our Electric Motor | Sailing Wisdom Ep 32
I do often wonder about having steeper reduction gears that would make the prop spin faster for the given power input.
As for batteries, our battery bank of 8 Group 31 cost about $1,800. It is currently 3 years old. If we were to replace the batteries every 2 years, that would seem expensive; but what if we viewed the price of batteries as the price of fuel? $1,800 would be the equivalent of 600 gallons of fuel @ $3 per gallon.
If your yacht burns 2 gallons per hour, that would give you a runtime of 300 hours before you would need to buy more fuel. If the batteries last longer than 2 years, then your "electric fuel costs" would decrease. Being how you feel that 2 hours of runtime is insufficient, I would assume that you would easily hit 300 hours of motoring in 2 years time. For someone who relies on their motor as the primary mode of propulsion, an electric motor would be a horrible choice. For us though, who sail as much as possible and only motor to get in and out of marinas, the electric motor works quite well.
While in the Chesapeake Bay, our batteries remained in the 80-100% range for three months without being plugged in because of the seldom use we drew from it and because the solar panels recharged the batteries while at anchor on sunny days. The best part is we never had to purchase fuel the entire time so our entire cruising budget was directed at food and entertainment.
Now ask any sailor about going sailing with an unreliable engine. An engine that will last 2 hours and then leave you stranded. Is this prudent? Is this good seamanship?....... no!
This application is the same as an electric car and after decades of research new battery technology has allowed deep discharge and charge rates but cost huge money to get the amp hours needed. The lead/acid battery system failed miserably.
We are often asked what we will do when faced with dangerous waters or situations and our first thought is "why would you even go there in the sailboat?"
When we have to get into tight spaces, we anchor out and row the dinghy in :)
While it does have its limitations, we love all of its benefits and feel it was an awesome change to make in the boat.
The generator is the real hero in this situation, as we have been running it almost the entire time we are motoring along! We have burned about 12 gallons since we left Hatteras about 152 miles ago.
The electric motors mount above the drive shaft, so they sit about 2 feet above the bottom of the bilge.
We have an electric bilge pump (standard rule pump) which could easily get blocked. Then we have a Whale Gusher mounted in the cockpit with a strum box.
Last but not least, we have a massive Edson manual bilge pump with no strainer and a 2.5 inch hose feeding it! The Edson can actually flow filth and scum with ease and shouldn't clog as a last resort.
Basically, we have an electric pump for convenience and then two manual pumps for actual work and dependability
30. comment for Our Electric Motor | Sailing Wisdom Ep 32
It would be the same as running a battery charger off of an inverter, eventually, you will run out of power.
Stay tuned for the next video when we address these questions.
Next you cannot recharge your motor batteries at night, if drawn down to a state of discharge. I would recommend a small Honda type generator for such emergencies, doesn’t have to be new just reliable. Next you might want to consider increasing your dry chemical fire fighting gear to up at least two sizes. Have you ever seen a battery explode and catch fire? You say you melted the fuse and fuse holder that right there is prime example of what I am referring to. Electrical fires are no joke, your wires run under everything and around everything make sure you have the power to douse those flames without water!
We do carry a ton of fire extinguishers because wood and fiberglass are great at burning secondary to an electrical fire!
Our plan was to not motor anywhere and strictly sail everywhere, but due to the severe weather we are having, we are getting a Honda generator to motor us a bit down the ICW.
About the power issue, you are very fortunate to have that much real estate available! Having a large battery bank that is being fed by such a large array will certainly give you more range and speed than we have. We are also 18 tons and with 100w, we can motor along at 2 knots for about 2 days; so you should definitely be able to go faster than that.
All your panels should give about 28 amps @ 48VDC which spins our prop around 750RPM. That also pushes us at around 4-5 knots. Any speed higher than this would then start to draw on your large battery bank.
For specific predictions, I would contact Mike Gunning at Electric Yachts (mike@electricyachtssocal.com).
He can give you a much better estimate about range and speed than I could.
With more solar panels, we would be able to afford the power draw on a calm sunny day.
50. comment for Our Electric Motor | Sailing Wisdom Ep 32
More batteries would be nice, just that we don't have the space for them.
An electric motor is the best of all worlds, especially with hydrogeneration (regeneration, getting battery charge from forward motion from sailing). Step down for maintaining 12V is fine. Make sure it has a very good 12V charge controller (very important).
The "solenoids" are called contactors. They're basically very high current, totally sealed relays, also used in electric vehicles, electric forklifts, etc.
With your systems ability to operate at 8 knots you can safely move out of the way of a larger ship. You can also motor away from rocks, pier or other hazards against tide, wave or wind action.
In the end, any machine can be operated beyond its capability. The safe operation depend on knowing the ability of your craft and your ability and staying within that set.
I think you are good to go. I also like the electric system. I definitely may try it in the future.
I have one question. What happens when salt water gets all over those wires?
Good luck! God Bless.
That's 678 pounds for the motor and batteries, or under 700 including the cables.
Total run time at around 2 knots when fully charged is around 20 hours. If you kick it up to 7 knots, the run time drops to around 20 minutes.
4A @ 6kn,
8A @ 7kn,
16A @ 8kn
or internal combustion , that supplies motive power for a vehicle or for another device with moving parts.:
Also much cleaner and lower CO2. You can recharge your electric motor batteries from wind, solar, sail (via hydrogeneration). You can't make fuel for internal combustion, at least not easily or efficiently.
Seriously guys, I could see hair sitting on the bus-bar just waiting to short and to cause a fire. Also if you have a leak the hair will be washed down and block up limber holes or the strum box on the bilge pump.
Remember a clean bilge is a happy bilge. And again; yuck!
Oh the solenoids you mentioned...well are solenoids..but are typically called contactors when engaging large electrical loads. They may give you trouble in the future as they look sealed(no repairing them). Eventually the metal bars in them that are actuated by the solenoids build up carbon on them or weld themselves together inside...not fun! The battery bank really shouldn't be drawn down more than to 80% capacity normally. Depending on your readout that 35 hours at 1/3 hp might only be 7/3.5 hours without toasting some batteries. This is where a generator might be helpful in prolonging the life of your battery bank. The life of them will drastically be altered. 90% is optimum. I myself have an electric boom lift and an electric scissor lift. Both great machines. Better than anything else when you have enough power available and are super cheap to run.
So far no noticeable damage to the batteries but I'm sure it cut a few years off the life of that battery bank.