Undergravel Filter Good or Bad? Betta fish and Shipping Daily Dose 51
Betta 7 years ago 51,655 views
I think undergravel filters are highly underrated. They work so well in planted aquariums, community aquariums etc. I also setup the matala mat dividers for the bettas. Support us by buying here: http://www.aquariumcoop.com/ Playlists: Fish Room Tours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk9XUY6eNBs&list=PLNM4mDAXGxWw9OJ4nxiHrSL-hkDynugDN&index=2 Breeding Fish For Profit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpW8tHGy6T4&list=PLNM4mDAXGxWwC6MUCEY5CDc2en17DEuHu Fish Room Updates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k15sqdgIq80&list=PLNM4mDAXGxWy0z9UYUHJEisZTIbLKAIaJ&index=1 How to Quarantine Fish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmCoLQjP7_A&list=PLNM4mDAXGxWy_XtG7TtBsRXmErhPpJrie&index=1 How to Build a Fish Room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFPXmoxJjzA&index=2&list=PLNM4mDAXGxWycLGJbmCzyBQgquycLrdzG DIY Videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BZ6zyQIf60&list=PLNM4mDAXGxWy65tSBHmR9Llgw08ceXPx0&index=1 Fish and Plant Profiles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKao1a90Lfk&list=PLNM4mDAXGxWxuU3VTz7lQu0EoFcDiPk5P&index=1 Listen to our Live streams and other Content in Podcast Form: Website: http://aquariumcoop.libsyn.com/ Itunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/real-fish-talk/id1072185017?mt=2 Android: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/aquarium-coop/real-fish-talk Facebook: www.facebook.com/aquariumcoop
Other industries which use his method are...
Automobiles
Washing machines
Tumble dryers
Dishwashers
Fridge freezers
Toasters
Tablets
Laptops
Electric smart meters
TVs
Dab radios
Hi fi systems
Headphones
Microphones
Remote controls
Burglar alarms
Brevels
Cookers
LED light bulbs
Drills
Lawn mowers
Stinkers
Hedge trimmers petrol/Electric
Toothpaste
Hair jell
Shavers
Razors
And last but not least?......?????..???............. Aquarium filter systems.
I can actually feel the difference in the water with my hand. Water samples examined under microscope show no signs of harmful bacteria. Since I don't know the source of the snails I am watching for any signs of harmful or dangerous bacteria or parasites such as schistosomiasis or amoeba.
I have lost a few fish to what I thought was probably parasites (I added fish that I did not treat or quarantine first). However the overall population is growing.
Planning on adding live plants soon, then I will get a better understanding of mineral levels in the tank (spectrographic analysis is not a cost appropriate approach at the moment). If they were rare fish I might consider other options but I certainly cannot complain.
I do have a UV filter I can add to the barrel or the tank but I have never needed it. Water samples do not show any signs of bacterial growth in the barrel and in the tank very little if any bacteria is suspended in the water column.
I use the HOB (Topfin 60) only for the fiber and occasional carbon filtration. Reading this I'm sure some of the sterility hounds are going nuts over how I keep my tank but I defy anyone to find anything harmful in my tank.
When vacuuming the gravel I use a pump powered vacuum and the water is returned to the tank. No water changes needed for removing any excess food particles not cleaned by the cleanup crews. Currently I have about25 fish in the tank after just a few months. I expect to double that load in the next six months (yes, I do have the silver sailfin mollies like you stated you wanted wanted in a previous video Cory, one male & two females). They are aggressive towards fry though, they have consumed several swordtails born in the tank. Once I have cover plants well established then that shouldn't be an issue. The only cover currently in the tank is artificial and it doesn't lend well to stimulating reproduction.
In addition to those two there are lyre tail black mollies, neon tetras, corydoras, catfish, black skirt platties, snails (unknown where they came from but I'm not complaining), and just starting to get algae growth.
Fish are like children, some exposure to bacteria helps to build their immune system. They aren't getting near the exposure they would get in the wild but realistically none of these strains were ever in the wild and they were all bred for aquariums from many many generations back.
It's like calling a carpet cleaner, would you want them to rearrange the house or pull up the carpet just to clean it? You certainly wouldn't want all your furnishings taken outside while the carpet is cleaned (in most cases).
Small increments of water changed with well prepared water and then ONLY WHEN NEEDED to control a particular issue. Try and replicate the natural environment as much as possible and you won't have issues, neither will your fish.
I've heard it said that we don't keep fish, we keep a bacterial colony and the fish, plant life, lighting, heat source, and whatever else we add to the tank just produce the food source for the bacteria we can't see with the naked eye. When it all works together it's a beautiful thing.
In my 12 year tank (120 gal) I only had to medicate two or three times due to my failing to properly quarantine fish I added. I didn't add live plants until after 8 months of prep time (waited for the tell tale signs of algae getting out of control). I started with air stones running the UG but discovered the power heads worked much better so I shed the air pump and used only the power heads. Once a week I ran a magnum 330 packed with dolomite and a carbon packet for three to four hours to polish the water. I monitored bacterial growth (with a microscope & samples) in various parts of the tank. Back then I ran T12 lighting with what claimed to be plant lights but they were not really bright enough. Later I added two halogen tubes with fans (500 watts each, custom build) that increased evaporation so I only ran them two-three hours a day and every few weeks left them off for a few days. After the first few years I found no reason to move the decor around in the tank at all. I did have to constantly prune plants, otherwise they would try to take over the tank.
I did notice placing willow branches and myrtle branches kept the fish exceptionally healthy over time and I let breeding occur naturally. Occasionally I let a freshwater crab or crayfish (wild caught, but they turned a brilliant blue in captivity) loose in the tank for short periods to handle cleaning of a carcass when needed but they resided primarily in another tank.
After nearly five years now with no tank setup I recently started establishing a 55 Gal tank to introduce my grandchildren to the hobby. Fighting back the urge to go out and buy another 120 gal tank. The wife (of five years now) has finally caved and stated I could put a 120 together IF I get rid of all my other tanks.
Smaller tanks are just high maintenance no matter how you set them up. The bigger the tank the easier it is to maintain overall. I have several tanks I have been just storing for the last 5 years, the wife wants them to go away.
I think too many people want results too quickly and that is what really feeds the marketplace. One must develop patience to be successful as a aquarium hobbyist. Success doesn't come fast.
From a retail standpoint I have always gravitated towards two things. Price and available knowledge. If a retailer tries to sell me gadgets I don't really need or doesn't really seem to know the products they do have, I'll go elsewhere. I don't mind paying little more to keep the "mom and pop" stores around where you can get information when needed.
I never really tried breeding on a commercial scale but I have thought about it. The wife would have a cow! Having young grandchildren around tends to take all my time so that aspect isn't really feasible right now. But if I get one or two of them interested in it???
I'll post another video soon of the current setup and it's progress when I get the chance to shoot one. I'm kind of like Don (aka Old School Fish Guy). I've learned what works for me. I'm not sure I'm any good at videotaping yet, that remains to be seen I guess. I'm dealing with exceptionally hard water where I live now, it may be a bit of a learning curve to get the balance right?
My longest running setup was just over 12 years without disturbing the UG other than cleaning the risers. If I hadn't moved then I have no doubts it would have gone indefinitely.
Contrary to popular beliefs fresh tap water when filtered is far from healthy for fish, it weakens their immune systems over time. The best environment is one that closely resembles or replicates a natural environment.
ive never tried it but my friends petshop only has one in it ive asked him about it and he said there still some debris or gunk on the farthest sides of the UG
but near the suction its clean
still for some fishkeepers knowing Dirt or gunk is present they might want to uncover it and siphon i dunno ive seen so many clean freaks actually am also one of them thats why majority of my tanks has barebottom
My experience has shown that air stones rarely move enough water through the UG Filter to get maximum efficiency from them. Using power heads adds multiple benefits. First it increases the water flow through the UG filter. Second it allows you to eliminate noisy air pumps by aiming the output towards the surface of the water which oxygenates it quite effectively. There are some downsides to using power heads! I have had one fail and cause an electrical short which released toxic fumes into the water and killed my entire tank. I can't blame that entirely on the power head though because I may have had it too high in the water column causing it to get too hot?
I have used UG filters since 1987 when I setup my first tank here in the USA after having a very large tank overseas while in the military. Larger tanks are typically easier to maintain, but suppliers don't want you to know that because they are more likely to sell a hundred 29 GAL tanks during the same time they sell 5 or 6 120 GAL tanks. The money is in volume sales, they focus on products that fit the sales market.
I'm not going to rehash the pros & cons that you covered in your video because you did a Tremendous job & I agree with you 100% on ALL POINTS ! That just doesn't happen with me......Ever ! Til NOW !
Thank You for covering this topic & doing so thoroughly. I'd really like to see younger hobbyists embrace Undergravel Filters & work to expand the horizons of others that they're trying to educate. The more options understood, the more used and the better the Hobby will be for the hobbyist & their Fish.
* The "HATE" is REAL ! Completely Unwarranted, but REAL.
Great Job Cory
i have a 94 gallon Oceanic glass corner bow aquarium i would like to use an under-gravel filter on....do you know where i can get an under-gravel filter for my tank?
10. comment for Undergravel Filter Good or Bad? Betta fish and Shipping Daily Dose 51
Like this.
20. comment for Undergravel Filter Good or Bad? Betta fish and Shipping Daily Dose 51
As they throw away half of their cycle each month with the cartridge, I find the undergravel keeps a plentiful supply of nitrifying bacteria to keep the tank running :)
30. comment for Undergravel Filter Good or Bad? Betta fish and Shipping Daily Dose 51
bads,hard to clean,tubes don't look great,not gret surface agro in 4 foot tanks,bbuid up of nitrates unless heavily planted or can clean udner plate
50. comment for Undergravel Filter Good or Bad? Betta fish and Shipping Daily Dose 51
Here is my analysis:
Based on my thorough observation... It seems to me that the claim of waste settling in the bottom is not true. This is proven by the sand waterfall effect which is when you use the riser tubes and the air stones to suck up sand and spill it out through the top of the tube. What this proves is that if there was any fish poop that made its way down past the grate... Then it's probably small enough to get sucked down into the cavity of the filter at the bottom... Then it would most likely make its way back up to the top through the lift tube and be deposited back on top of the gravel. This would then be vacuumed out once you do your regular maintenance.
Again, if you can you compare the models out there Lee's, Topfin, Immagitarium and so forth I would really appreciate it. For example I like the Topfin only cause you can customize it to odd shaped tanks... But I don't like all the vertical grates that each peice has cause it seems that it may reduce flow and trap stuff.
What do you think?
And power filters definitely have more surface area for bacteria altogether because with HOB's and canisters there's the surface area in the filter AND the gravel (plus whatever other surfaces there are in the tank like decor), while UGF's only use the gravel as the surface area (plus other surfaces like i said before).
Because it's the answer to the problem of waste that collects under the under gravel plate
Sorry never even saw one before. But looking into it. Getting so much education on this channel! Wich is great, for my future in the hobby. Yay fish.
100. comment for Undergravel Filter Good or Bad? Betta fish and Shipping Daily Dose 51
BTW, just found your channel and I'm enjoying your videos.
The one problem that I see is that airstones clog. When a lift tube stops lifting, the other tubes mostly suck water down the dead tube and up the live tubes, bypassing the gravel.
I am still using them in most of my tanks:
55 Hex - Ancistrus
20 Tall - Guppies
20 Tall - J. transcriptus (masked julies)
85 (18x48x23 high) - Ancistrus Fry
3 Hex - Guppies
All are heavily planted. Plant roots grow down theough the plates to take advantage of the flow of nutrified water in the open area near the bottom glass.
PS: Great video! Thank for trying to foster an active and fact based discussion. I don't expect all of us to get degrees on the subject but I do think reading the mountains of material, NOT created by manufacturers, can help to enrich the aquarium keepers level of satisfaction with there hobby.
You mentioned Amazon Swords though and I remember a picture or video years ago of one that was so tangled up roots had to be cut to remove it from the UGF and it had heavily restricted the flow.
I could also see problems using a Sand Substrate with them as well.
But i agree that they have there uses and do work good.
I don't run it with an air-stone, but a powerhead with additional DIY form bottle for extra filtration media in place of a spray bar.
I Gravel vacuum every second week and lightly clean my form media with tank water when needed.
No probs,
NO mess,
Cheap,
n lastly does a
I had and overly stocked ug filtered tank for a year when I was starting out. Was half emptied, strapped onto the back seat of a car for 500 miles to my new address and set back up. Not only did all plants and fish survive but the Angels started breeding soon after.
Would go back to ug in a snap.
No clue if that'd work, but it's just a thought that's rolled around in my head, and that I don't really have the ability to test.
Now, do you have a lot of nitrogen in the water? Good! Plant growers kill to get nitrogen. Put plants in the tank (a lot!). Nitrogen will help the plants grow, and it will in turn also help the tank. Many problem that arise in a fish tank are because some element from nature is missing, or is out of balance.
It's neat to go to a small pond in nature that has life in it and see the balanced ecosystem. Everything is working together to promote life. But for the most part, it looks nothing like what I see in most people's fish tank. The pond will have algae and mulm (which is good!). The water will have particulates in it. The parameters can fluctuate. Sometimes the fish go days without eating a significant amount of food. The lighting will be darker. And so on. Now, we may not want to completely replicate all those conditions to the same degree since we are keeping the fish as a hobby and would like to see them and make sure they have the optimal living conditions. But when I hear people say they forgot to feed their fish one day and are freaking out, I realize how out of touch they are with nature. Or when their water temperature will dip, as if the fish in Mexico in a small pond will not experience some fluctuations. Winter happens in these tropical places where the outside temperature will be similar to the indoor temperature of our homes too.
I think getting back to basics and keeping the natural perspective in mind will go a long way. And the information you are providing Cory is conducive to that!
1) The Perfecto brand UGF is hard to gravel vac with the pleated plates and the slits clog up with small grained gravel causing hindered flow. I have seen this happen in old 500 gallon custom displays where the UGF was built with a screen as well.
2) Perfecto brand UGF has extra riser holes with caps for the holes you don't use. These caps degrade over time, break, and let gravel through, destroying the effectiveness of the filter.
3) With those two things said, UGF is also a problem when something goes wrong with it and you have to replace it; you have to tear the whole tank down to fix the filter.
4) Water will pull through the UGF unequally because water will flow the path of least resistance. So usually only a small area near the uprights actually pulls water through it. There are usually dead zones from the pull of the air stones or powerheads and wastes will accumulate in small sections under the plates. When you do end up cleaning it it often stirs into the uprights and pollutes the tank while you're cleaning just like squeezing a Sponge Filter under the water without bagging it first will do.
5) Unsightly, and take up valuable space. Algae magnets and hard to clean algae off of them.
6) Bad with diggers, creates holes that bypass gravel. thus, no filter.
7) Can't use them with sand, which means you shouldn't use them with certain types of fish, like earth eaters.
8) Plants roots will clog the holes over time, depending on brand.
9) Plants roots will intertwine with the plates making uprooting near impossible or very messy or take the whole plate with it.
10) This is anecdotal, but when I used to clean fish tanks for a living all the tanks that had undergravel filters would get algae all over the glass much quicker than any other type of filter. After removal of the UGFs, with nothing else changing on the tank, I would see much less algae.
That was very convincing
Thank you.
Do you have any experience with the under gravel jet system with a prefilter.
If so I'd appreciate your opinion for or against the above.
I was thinking of building a under gravel jet system with 3/4" PVC pipe on the bottom of a 150 gal long tank.
I'm using a small 400gph pump with filter floss on top, put inside a 4" PVC pipe with slits on the top that will do surface skimming. The above will be built on each end of the tank.
I got this idea from::
LOW TECH TANK (U tube)
Thanks again
Don't have any big root plants in there yet, only java fern and anubias, was thinking about planting some crypts and reporting results with the roots after a few months. I am however worried about the roots clogging up the air holes and limiting flow through the gravel though. Time will tell with that. Worst case, I have to pull up some plates in a 10 gallon and redo it, figured I'd start small with it and see how it does.
However they do collect a lot of crap, I ran one for about 6 years that housed my goldfish during winter months, when I did eventually drain it and check it, (was always curious) the bottom of it had black crap under the trays, my fist thought was plant food.. After draining the tank I planted clones directly into the substrate with no rock wool/ferts/soil or anything else added and the clones took off like crazy. That stuff was basically plant fert gold.
Channel, Robert, 1987. Floggin' that old horse
again. FAMA 10/87.
Dewey, Don. 1979. How-to: Here's how to build
your own highly efficient undergravel filter for those large tanks, or
the odd sized aquariums for which no standard size filter is available.
FAMA 6/79.
Dow, Steven. 1991. Educate your staff on
undergravel filters. The Pet Dealer 12/91.
Edmonds, Les. 1989. Understanding the undergravel
filter. TFH 1/89.
Goemans, Bob. Undergravel filters. TFH
4/01.
Helwig, Dan. 1983. How-to: Construct undergravel
filters. FAMA 2/83.
Hovlid, Norman G. 1959. The case for the
under-gravel filter. TFH 7/59.
King, John M & William E. Kelley. 1973.
Efficiency of subgravel filters. Marine Aquarist 4:3, 73.
Nichol, Red & Jim Cooper. 1978. The
undergravel filter: the debate goes on. FAMA 4/78.
Ostrow, Marshall E. 1981. A filtration system with
a difference. TFH 9/81.
Parker, Nancy J. 1974. Eggcrate Filter. Marine
Aquarist 5:2, 74.
Schiff, Steven J. 1990. Undergravel filters:
maintenance and alternatives. Tips and techniques for obtaining
efficient, effective biological filtration for aquariums. AFM 5/90.
Schiff, Steven J. 1993. Undergravel filters, pt.s
1 & 2. FAMA 10 & 11/93.
Volkart, Bill 1991. Understanding undergravel
filters. TFH 6/91.
Watson, Thomas T. 1983. Understanding undergravel
filtration. TFH 6/83
1) Does it take longer to cycle a tank with a new undergravel filter than with other types of filters?
2) Would you want to use courser gravel with it as opposed to sand or aragonite?
3) Is it a necessity to clean under it every so often, or can you leave it be?
4) What if you have a heavily planted tank with carpeting? Wouldn't that make it a lot harder if you still had to gravel vacuum due to having an undergravel filter?
Here's how I think about UG in general.....I don't think about it as a debate about which filtration system is best, I think about all the filtration as a "system". When I think about various ways to "super charge" -like you're recommendations on pre-filter sponges I also think about UG. In my 125g tank With dual sun-sun 704 canisters I also have close to 2600 cubic inches of gravel sitting there.....why not put it to good/better use? For an extra 20% or so on my filtration "system" cost? The main guiding principle though is none of this replaces keeping up with tank maintenance but each step makes the ecosystem more stable and/or a little less labor intensive.
Front: Aquarium Co-op logo
Back: (in giant, 80's WHAM style lettering)
RANT
FAN
I'll take a size XL please.
My personal testing and use has shown that over a 5 year period in two tanks, one using two risers at both rear corners and the other using only one riser tube in one rear corner, the use of both risers is essential EVEN WHEN using a power head on the single riser.
Suction to the far side of a 39 gal tank with a 170 GPH power head was NOT sufficient to draw water through the gravel at the far side of the tank. That being said, water conditions did not suffer any noticeable changes in the single riser tank. The dual riser tank used two 170 GPH power heads and maintained superb water conditions. Directing the power head outputs to disturb the surface of the water maintained excellent oxygen saturation in both tanks. It is imperative the plates are properly joined together to ensure proper flow through the gravel.
You CANNOT use sand substrates efficiently with under gravel filters, even if you use polyfill on top of the filter under the sand substrate (seriously don't try this). I have used under gravel filters in both fresh water and marine tanks. Once the filter is established (about six months) the necessity of water change decreases dramatically (beware PH crashes before 6 months). The longer the under gravel filter is in use (with a balanced substrate) the more stable the PH becomes. You can add some crushed coral medial to sandblasting gravel and get a well balanced PH in your tank. Use only a little crushed coral or you may experience a PH spike!
Gravel vacuuming is essential but frequency depends on tank load and plant load. With some practice you can obtain a well balanced system that does not require plant foods and rarely requires water changes. Water quality should be closely monitored after three weeks up to about the 6-8 month mark when it becomes stable. After which it becomes very simple to maintain with very low maintenance required.
I have kept marine aquariums, brackish water aquariums, freshwater aquariums (both PH High and PH Low). I have learned that just a little understanding of the actual chemistry in the aquarium and basic causes of common aquarium issues lends a great deal towards preventing ever seeing those same issues in my own tanks.
Cory (hope I spelled that right "Cory") AKA "AquariumCoOp" is by far a cut above the rest MOST of the time. I have absolutely no doubts in his expertise with plants or goldfish. He has some of the the most beautiful goldfish I've seen on YouTube actually. I would pick his brain on lighting issues and current equipment available before keeping some fishes I have not kept before or haven't kept in a long long time. No doubt he is a wealth of information and a benefit to ALL of us who actually keep aquariums.
I would really like to see Cory getting more into explaining the actual chemistry going on and why some things are the way they are when he is diving into an issue being discussed.
Although I am quite sure Cory believes the majority of his audience is not interested in the details of the actual chemistry in the aquarium when it comes to water quality issues they just want something that works and like any self respecting businessman he has a solution readily available for them. Sadly, they will never be educated on the details of PH balancing or "Fish Load" vs "Plant Load" (He did do a video on this subject I think?) unless someone with his knowledge explains it to them in terms they understand OR they spend hours and hours going through the plethora of books (half of which are pure and absolute garbage) available. In fact I wonder based on some of the comments if some of his followers have any idea of the benefits of nitrAtes in the water or why they should watch for nitrite spikes after adding anything to their aquarium water?
I digress, back on the subject of under gravel filters, simple rule applies, if you want plants, either with low light or bright light, use an under gravel filter, you will be glad you did in the long run.
I'm the guy who does the fish keeping stuff against what most people say. Like my saltwater tank. I do not run ro di water in them.
I know everyone preaches about frequent water changes, but I am of the belief that replicating the natural filtration processes found in nature are much healthier for the tanks occupants. I don't see an UG as an option for a cichlids only tank. In the mean time, I'm still working on a South American Tropicals tank. I would like to do a Texas Native (freshwater)Tank, but the fish are difficult to get since you have to catch them in the wild. I'm not sure how large of a tank I would need just to keep the threadfin & gizzard shad healthy, I'm sure 400-600 Gallons won't be near big enough though. It's going to take something the size of a swimming pool for that endeavor (not likely any time soon). The Bass, Crappie, Perch, Pickerel, Catfish, and all the different minnow species wouldn't pose much of a challenge other than size, but the two shad species are a different story altogether. Setting up a self sustaining environment for shad that isn't completely clouded or green would be a real challenge I think.
You know if you're going to go big you might as well go really big.
Moral of the story? Fuck knows.
How would you compare the under gravel jet system VS
your reverse under gravel filter with prefilter
Next on to the tank with the betta dividers, start with an undergravel filter, this will ensure water flow through all the chambers. Put your dividers in down into the gravel but take it a step further. Using a 20 gallon tank is way too much tank real estate for holding three or four bettas, especially since you purpose is to bring them in to sell. So in those dividers which I would go with three of them cut some vertical slots, dados are what they are officially called, then cut some glass or plexiglas dividers that slide into the slots to further divide the tank up. I would try to make the tank so that it would have 12 separate compartments. The only issue you’d have is still the surface agitation which bettas don’t have to have but you could just use a couple airstones on flexible tubing that you move into each section from time to time.
Undergravel filters do work great, give them a try.
If you want to use rooted plants in the tank and you use some sort of mat, sponge, peat bag, etc. The roots are going to entangle in that and if you ever want to re-arrange it is a royal pain, most of the time the roots just end up breaking off only left to decay in the substrate and the mat or whatever. I feel that just plain natural gravel works the best like what your shop can buy from the supplier in Renton. I would not use the epoxy coated gravels, first of all because they are not as rough for bacteria to colonize, and secondly because the process of gravel cleaning will eventually wear that epoxy off and who knows what is under it.
They do take longer to establish but once established the work really well. My tank was empty for a while after a move but once I get the under-gavel filter stabilized again I'll add some live plants again.
Detriments (you asked!): Can't use with sand (and probably aquasoil, as it breaks down), harder to access if clogged or trying to deep clean the filter (although gravel vacuuming should be enough to maintain the filter). In particular, I have heard horror stories about having to completely take out the UGF after experiencing a problem, uprooting plants and substrate and generally being a huge pain. I think the easy access of HOB and canister filters puts worrying hobbyist minds at ease. Otherwise I'm drawing a blank.
Thanks for challenging my preconceived notions! I'm a huge believer in evidence-based practice. You have the courage to try things others don't do just because "That's not how it's done." Big reason why this channel is awesome. Keep thinking, keep experimenting, I'll keep watching!
One thing I can say from experience. I have never had an undergravel filter take more than ten days to completely cycle even starting with fresh gravel out of the bag. If you have used gravel to mix in, it can take less than five.
I prefer to use powerheads to run my filters for two reasons. First, because the produce a stronger movement of water. Second, I have hard (325 ppm) water, and the spray from an airlift coats the sides and lids on my tanks with a crust of calcite.
Let's talk about mulm. Yes, mulm does build up under the plates of an undergravel filter. But is that a bad thing? For a fish only tank, my answer is; maybe - if you neglect your water changes. For a planted tank, the answer is a big, capitalized, NO. Let me explain:
What is mulm? Where does it come from and how does it get under the filter plates? Every tank contains some mulm. It will be there until someone breeds a fish or invertebrate that doesn't poop and makes a food that won't decompose if it the doesn't get eaten . Mulm is decomposing organic matter. It originates from three sources. One, poop from fish, shrimp, snails, and any other aquatic animal you have in your tank. Two, uneaten food. Three, leaves, stems, and other plant parts that break off and die. All of these things are heavier than water, so they naturally fall to the bottom of the tank. Even before they fall, microorganisms living in the tank start to work on them. If there are any gardeners out there, this will sound familiar, It is exactly what happens to the stuff you throw into your compost heap, and the end result is the same thing- humus. Yes, mulm is aquatic humus, and it has the same benefits for aquatic plants as terrestrial humus has for your garden and potted plants. As the stuff decomposes, it breaks down into finer and finer particles and drops through the spaces between grains of gravel until it reaches the solid bottom of the tank. If there is no undergravel filter, It would still find its way through the substrate, just not as quickly. As the mulm decomposes, it releases the minerals stored in the food or poop back into the water. If the substrate is filled with living plant roots, it is quickly absorbed and used by the plants. If there are no plants present, that is why every sensible aquarist does water changes and gravel vac. The mulm will decompose, and the minerals will be released, regardless of the filtration system used. Whether it happens in the sump, the canister, the sponge, the sand, the gravel, or the floss is up to you and what kind of filter you use. In an undergravel filter, it happens in the gravel or under the plates where it can be easily be absorbed by the plants.
Another, seldom mentioned, benefit of undergravel filters is their effect on the oxygen - carbon dioxide cycle. Everyone knows about photosynthesis and how plants turn CO2 into O2. Most know that under bright light in a heavily planted tank, this can result in over oxygenation and a deficiency of CO2. What is less well known is that this process stops at the top of the gravel. The roots of plants do not receive any light and do not perform photosynthesis. They must absorb oxygen and release
CO2 or die. By circulating water through the gravel, UG filters bring oxygen down to the plant roots, and move the carbon dioxide produced by the roots up to the top of the tank, where the leaves and stems can use it in photosynthesis. One result of this is that with an undergravel filter, you find that the substrate is filled with a luxuriant growth of clean white roots. This is particularly obvious with Amazon sword plants, which will send huge masses of roots down through the filter plate and into the mulm below.
I will always use undergravel filters, and if they stop making them, I will make my own out of cpvc pipe. Don't worry about the haters. Hate is the result of ignorance. I know that the UG filters work and so do you.
Spot on!
I used an undergravel filter powered by airstones for years. Never had a problem with my 55g Amazon community tank.
You want your mechanical filtration to be easy to clean so that you can remove physical waste quickly & easily before it breaks down to toxic byproducts while not disturbing your biological media (this is why protein skimmers are so popular). I concede that a fully plated tank may be a different story. UGF can work, but there is a difference between surviving and thriving. Dissolved oxygen is the difference.
Fish's back tail! I don't have any place to put the fish, so it continues to bully my fish. Any tips to lower aggression!?
Interesting thoughts on the goldfish and the breather bags and it makes a lot of sense.
I'm a huge UG fan but I love my cory cats more and they love the sand.
When I finally reset all of my tanks, I am going to have an UG in half a tank that will have a Matten on the other end. I'm playing with the idea of a UG in another tank but I haven't settled on what fish are going in there. I may even convert one 55g to a goldfish tank and make that UG. UG gives such a large filter bed and I'm looking for easier maintenance because I just can't keep up with all of the work.
Keep up with the great videos. It's awesome to hear things from someone who knows lots about what he works with.
People today don't want to actually know about substrate composition and how it reacts with the water itself. Just like they don't know about dolomite water polishing or just using nylon panty hose for adding carbon to a HOB. Heaven forbid they understand how a piece of myrtle wood can really benefit their tank (most tanks anyway).
Rarely do people even consider the substrate IS actually decomposing in the water column as part of the complete system. A good measure of the right materials and inhabitants and the tank pretty much runs itself.
My question is a bit off topic of what you discussed int he video. I have been looking high and low for Red Eye Red Tail puffer fish (Carinotetraodon irrubesco). I was wondering if you knew anything about the fish and if you had any experience keeping them.
Thanks
For me, it's mainly because of the new tech and for ME it's easier to maintain using a canister or sump. I'm not too hot on HOB filter either but again, that's a preference thing. At the end, it does work fine, it's just a matter of preference.
My thoughts on the Koi community doing the under the tank piping to remove debris would be that the system will create as much bacteria (with efficient enough of surface area) that is required for the amount of waste. So less fish waste and uneaten fish food the less ammonia the less bacteria needed. So correct me if I am wrong the only real loss there would be any micro organism that would live and feed off of it which like you mentioned would be beneficial to fry.
But yea I got nothing really against them if they work for you then sweet. Some people do best with huge expensive canister filters or sump filtration others with sponge and under gravel filters. Like you said whatever makes you sleep better at night or rather whatever puts your mind more at ease. =) Good video by the way Cory.
Concerning the video. I don't need any more pumps and filters, and i am not allowed to buy new aquariums. But i would try a ugf if i was going to buy a new tank. Just to try i out.
So, can you recommend a similar led light on amazon.it?
I personally run Ehime 350 pro Canisters on my 2 larger tanks, on my smaller tank I have an AquaClear HOB and on two of my 10g nano Cubes I have SunSun602B canisters.
My pops used to keep a Salt Water Reef tank of 120 gallons about 20 years ago. Mind you, this was when he used to have to have coral flown in from Indonesia, Australia and where ever else he was able to find people selling frags.
He had some of the most massive, amazing Lion Fish and Panther Gropers I have ever seen. These were heavy polluters, who ate live medium sized feeder fish daily. He did eventually lose his fish, but we were on vacation and the power went out, so the loss was not the under gravel filters fault.
His maintenance was gravel vac weekly and change half the pads every thee months (he didn't want to risk loosing the beneficial bacteria). He was a salt keeper, and tested daily.
He had those tanks running for about 15 years, with that being his only form of filtration.
I may join you in this challenge. I have a Fluval Chi 6.6g Cube. The fiter on that tank is gorgeous, but its garbage. I am getting ready to reset it and use it for a planted shrimp tank in my office. An under gravel filter set would create a downward current, pulling the carpeting plant roots down, creating a stronger root bed and filter the tank so much more efficiently that my tiny filter can without having bulky equipment in the tank.
You are dead on correct about it being great at hosting bacteria and it is why my fish lasted in that tank for the 5 years (till we adopted them out prior to a move out of state).
Sequence of events: We actually started with 12, 1/2 feeders in the tank.
The next few weeks was a bit of a fishy blood bath, I know now that the tank was cycling.
Because of the bioload at the end of the cycle, fish stopped dying and we got a bacteria bloom that took hold on the underside and up the tubes. It looked like orange algae, but it was actually bacteria. We would clear the tubes, vac the gravel but not mess with the underside of the filter. We also used the carbon attachments to the UGF, so the tank didn't stink to high heaven either. I know it was the UGF because the orange stuff wasn't anywhere else, and the normal green algae was happily growing on everything topside.
I can tell you UGF's are idiot proof, because idiot kid me was able to make it work.
I watched your video about how to get the most out of the hang on backs and used that info. I added intake sponges, sponges inside the filter, and bio bags to maximize everything. I think that having a combination of filtration is the best thing to do. Thanks for the videos Co-Op.
check out my video if ya fancy it..
http://www.matalausa.com/Pond-Filters-c-41.html
One way to solve the "large cichlids" digging(and this is an issue) is to put an inch of gravel down, add egg crate cut to fit then add gravel on top...the fish dig down to the crate and can dig no lower. The plant issue seems to revolve around some plants not liking water moving around their roots.....in my 110 i have tried to resolve this issue by adding a much deeper layer of gravel so that the root areas of the plants get a deep strata to set roots and still have some detritus pulled within range....this of course adds to the possibility of anaerobic bacteria build up and the nitrate factory possibility. One method people have used in the past is to reverse flow the gravel filter, which sends the water up through the substrata, myself i use a power head every once in awhile to flush the UG backwards, which blows some detritus back out. I am no plant expert but i think they do ok in a normal UG set up that is a little deeper than normal...the rule we always used with UGs was 2 inches of gravel, though this might have changed over the years. Thank you so much for bringing this subject some much needed fresh air! I have also pestered DIY Joey to re invent the UG hoping his do it yourself skills might add a new wrinkle or two to this old stand by that has served fishkeepers so well for so long.
/watch?v=3rSfN10M-Gs
I never removed it to clean under it
I watched it from under side and it always seemed clean no algae or build up on glass under it
mine hade 2 tubes one I connected to hob and other with air stone in it
just from my experience it had no downfall
Hell I'm running an overstocked 125 gallon african cichlid tank with only a fluval 306 and a circulation pump. To top it off I took out all the ceramic media in the fluval and replaced it with biofoam. Everyone would say I don't have enough filtration but my tank is healthy as can be.
One certain downside to an undergravel filter is that it takes much longer to gravel vac a tank than to give a sponge filter a few squeezes. Since you have substrate in that tetra tank, for example, you currently have to do both. But be honest; do you gravel vac that tank as often as you clean the sponge? Ditching the sponge would require regular gravel vacing for sanitary reasons instead of aesthetic.
But now that I think about it, one can't assume that the gravel would need to be cleaned as frequently as a sponge filter. The vastly increased volume of filter media offered by undergravel filters would allow more time between maintenance. How much time would not be easily determined since it's not as obvious when an undergravel filter needs to be vacuumed compared to a sponge filter.
I really didn't set out to write a qualifying summa on the subject, but it goes to show how nuanced and controversial this piece of equipment really is!
inhales I need
in my opinion sponge is still the best you can add bottle + diy k1 moving bed filter if bigger bio load but I want to know what will happen 6months or a year of under gravel filter
cos the old technology or old designs ive seen it and try for a year and its like darkness ink when i took it suddenly the water got so dark inside a 10 gallon tank i think that was my 1st tank 10+ years ago
check it after a year =)
you will get more higher chance of ick and diseases right now you get it.
but ive never had diseases ever again on my tanks for like 11 years
and i have less maintenance my tanks has power head filtrations with good circulation
but maybe we have different fishes i have big fishes my style of filtration is like uarujoey or diyking but mine is not over flow mine is powerhead in my pond well its a different topic
RUN IT for 3-6 months and check it
if you have big fishes its not for you too trust me
HOB too is not for big fishes
I'm happy you are getting back to your old self.
undergravel filter has a huge downside making THE EFFICIENCY of this kind of FILTRATION very low because some gunk or poop dirt whatever will remain under the gravel and is extremely hard to siphon out 100% you have to remove everything
for noobs i recommend sponge filter easy to clean easy to use low wattage aswell
but if you care for FISHES that grows big it might not be able to cope with the BIO LOAD
add + a bottle untop of the sponge filter with k1 media making a moving bedfilter or fluidize bed filter whatever. sponge filters style of filtration requires lots of siphoning compared to power head filter that has good circulation water flow you must understand it first
to make the circulation efficient
overflows are not my thing too. COS LESS MAINTENANCE i mean siphoning and waterchanges makes you stay longer in the hobby and I have big fishes example? SILVER AROWANA REDTAIL CATFISH, CLOWN KNIFE GIANT GOURAMI and KOIS ive sold most of it cos am trying to have my own house now lol anyway thats it good luck peace! happy fish keeping
i think alot of the boo comes from the popularity of sands and dirt tanks, which could be put to rest with a simple mesh overlay
I have recently been considering changing to a sponge filter because of how much you say you love them but hey I might just stick with it now.
Would it be bad to have both?
...now that they have moved to a smaller house and retired they only have a goldfish 45 gl. And another 45. Bow front that came with mixed oddball bottom dwellers like yoyo loaches, clown loaches, A pleco and lace tail catfish, she then add two more fancy goldfish to lol.. But there is still whining about another discus tank...so even though she only has two 45gl. UG filter tanks (we just cut down the 55gl. Filter plates) she now has a ton of barbed spiky catfish and Cory cats and Pleco and feather fin cats are well armed for fending of fish keeper trying to move them...they also rip fish nets, bags and appearantly gloves and shirts too.. as I have learned now that they have all gotten much bigger...
The BB area is massively under rated
The idea of an UG with a drilled bottom hooked to a canister with an inline heater and spray bar return would be about as clean a look as you could get! :)